"Aggros Abuse"

I will preface by saying that I do sincerely appreciate all that GMs do for this server, and the intent of my post is not to be argumentative, but rather to come to some sort of solution to prevent future instances of banning players who aren't aware of the intricacies of "aggro abuse."

1. I literally just today learned that this topic was debated in depth back in October/November based on the above link. However, the recently banned "aggro-abuse" player and I only gained access to NT and Nibergen just a few weeks ago. So we had no idea that attacking Nib from afar was considered "aggro abuse" and a bannable offense. Had we known, or had it been made clear in any way, we would never have done this. Frankly, banning new NT players without any warning or communication makes no sense to me. It really seems that the only way I would have known about this specific issue was if I had read a random post from 5 months ago debating this issue. I wasn't on the forums 5 months ago, and I didn't even know what NT was lol. How was I supposed to know about this?

2. The ToS currently states: Any form of aggro abuse that causes a monster or boss to no longer attack at all is forbidden." If you read the link above, Alyosha brings up a great point which I think is worth repeating here, and (to my knowledge) was not addressed by GM. How is GS2 staircase heal, shaolin 5-6 bookshelf genesis, etc not considered aggro abuse by the current ToS definition? It literally adheres to the ToS definition of aggro abuse: anything "that causes a monster or boss to no longer attack at all is forbidden." When priests spam heal on GS2 staircase, monsters aren't able to attack them at all. So based on ToS definition, all bishops should be banned.

The ironic thing is, GS2 abuse is worse than Nib abuse. My logic is as follows: priests don't get banned at GS2 where they literally don't take any damage at all. But BMs get banned at Nib by standing in cloud, even though cloud does some damage. If anything GS2 is worse because you literally don't use a single potion whereas in Nib you still have to pot otherwise you die.

At the very least, there seems to be lots of inconsistencies and confusion. I know for a fact that I'm not the only player that was confused by all this. So, is it too much to ask to at least provide a warning or some sort of clarification to new players that are attempting Nib before you just ban them outright?

 

going by the thread linked in the OP, the players at that time had as little forewarning about the aggro abuse situation as the currently banned player did.

the main issue is that there is currently nothing telling players to attack nibergen the "proper" way besides that old thread, so anyone new to NT won't have a clue that they're doing something bannable. the only reason my archer bud has been able to do nib without getting banned is because i told him, and the only reason that i even knew was because i heard it from an old fishy. but for the players we're talking about, no one told them (sorry, i should have remembered)

it's human nature to want to find the most efficient way to do a boss, and it's extremely easy to think that you're not aggro abusing because you're still taking constant damage from the clouds. a hallmark of ranged classes is their ability to kill bosses without letting them attack, so it's not exactly fair to expect them to do the mental gymnastics to figure out that it's not allowed in this specific boss fight.

now i'm definitely not arguing that you should be allowed to stand in the corner to prevent nib from doing anything, but due to the confusing nature of the fight, you shouldn't be given a ban without some kind of warning. if you could change the text on the NPC you talk to in order to start the expedition, then that would be a perfect place to put a disclaimer for the aggro abuse rules.

 

The GM's can easily put an invisible teleporter on the far right corner of the screen to prevent that. Also its not called "Aggros Abuse" the correct term is called "Stacking."
People do this sort of thing in MS2 to speed clear bosses, its something they shouldn't be doing and Neckson has been giving out bans for it.

 

Where do we draw the line between aggro abuse and safespotting?

 

if its attacking, but you arent getting hit, you should be fine. aggro abuse is when it stops attacking.

 

This discussion is giving me some nostalgia trips.

 

Hi guys, just wanted let you all know that we've been talking about this. Nothing is definite yet and proposed solutions have some issues, so please understand it may take a while for us to process this.

Aggro abuse is outlined in the Terms of Service. I understand many people may not read it, but it's there and we have to enforce rules based on what's there.

I do agree that the specific clause about Aggro Abuse is not very clear, so we're discussing some ways to clarify what constitutes as abuse and what doesn't.

 

I may be wrong, but I'm also assuming it's very specific to a few cases?
I've been in this server for over 2 years but I never got to the higher levels, and I've never encountered this problem. I've heard the term flying around but never felt the need to worry about it, and I still have no idea how and what a player does to stop the monster from attacking... sounds like a bug that's being exploited??

 

nibergen aggro abuse video explained
hopefully, this kindve explains some things

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JuWOW6woQ8&feature=youtu.be

 

Ok, I can see the difference between how standing under the ship can still let it attack (but all the attacks STILL MISS) and standing under it all the way in the corner makes it do nothing...

But I still think there is something seriously wrong with being able to just "stand on clouds" and making every single one of the boss's attacks miss. You should be falling off and leaving the map or something.

 

we can blame Neckson for this. idk why they wanted to do it like this

 

Neckson isn't the one who is judging the quality of the content on this server and putting it in.

 

no, but theres no way we can "block" that area. This is another area that "not heavily washed players" can stand and attack. If people are getting banned for attacking it while it freezes, then it makes sense to ban them, but banning them for being under there while it attacking is another thing. If this is the case, anybody in Ghost ship should be considered banned. It's "strategy" tbh, but like I said, if the boss isnt attacking at all, then of course its abuse if doing it on purpose. This boss is just hard to decide whats bannable and whats not. Hopefully my video showing actual gameplay of it helps people not get banned

 

This isn't the same as ghost ship. These are just regularly spawning stupid mobs that typically die in a few hits anyway. It would be like saying ranged attackers sniping mobs on a different platform is just as bad, or beginners jumping up and hitting orange mushrooms from the edge of a ledge is bad, or sealing and slowing a monster so it can't really fight back is just as bad. I get that there are certain sweet spots in the game where you can just mindlessly grind on monsters, and they're really stupid, but that has always been a part of the game.

I think the main distinction here is that this is a fight against a major boss. This isn't the time for grinding, and I would expect a lot more from a team of 4th job players. If I was designing a boss, this tactic would be clearly broken.

 

well, whenever we run it. everyone stands on the left and the warriors/buccs stand in the bottom left middle. we only leave mules/alts bottom right, I agree how dumb the "cloud tactic" is though.

 

I agree with what you're saying about how freezing a boss is worse than freezing stupid mobs.

However, my original intent in comparing bosses and GS2 is that according to the way the ToS is currently written, the same aggro abuse rules should be enforced to both mobs and bosses. The ToS states: "Any form of aggro abuse that causes a monster or boss to no longer attack at all is forbidden." However, in current actual practice, staff is only banning people who freeze boss and not people who freeze mobs. This banning practice is inconsistent with how the ToS is actually written.

So my suggestion is either staff should clear up ToS for aggro abuse, or if they're going to continue to be inconsistent in enforcing ToS (only ban for bosses in specific cases and not mobs), then they should provide more clarity and warnings. But at the end of the day it's not my server so staff can follow my suggestion or just leave it as is. Frankly I've lost interest in the game and don't really care anymore but I really don't see what's wrong with providing more clarity to people who are running these bosses. I mean this issue has literally come up multiple times now and for multiple people so it's not just me that was confused. If this issue is ignored and left unaddressed again then I would suspect that some future player who does Nib may also "aggro abuse" unintentionally and get banned and get upset about it.