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"Aggros Abuse"

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Damn, Mar 18, 2019.

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  1. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    Would like for those posting on multiple forum accounts under the same IP to stop doing so.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  2. echung379
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    echung379 Brown Teddy

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    Are you talking to me? O.O
     
  3. Aerika
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    Aerika Slime

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    Can guarantee forum users echung379, Damn, and I (Aerika) are all separate individuals...

    ?????????
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. OP
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    Damn
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    Damn Orange Mushroom

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    Ryoku
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    Yeah, it's only us three posting here besides the Mods. Can confirm I am not using two accounts or living with them.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Zooploop
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    Zooploop Master Chronos

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    Why would anyone preemptively search Nibergen on the forum to learn how not to get banned doing something they've never yet experienced?

    I'm deeply confused why a warning isn't a thing for this, there can't be that many people at Neo Tokyo, if you see someone aggro abusing it say "hey don't stand in corner if nobody is left" and add them to a warned list, and next time it's a ban. Would prevent alot of headache.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  6. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    Lionheart
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    Look guys, the rules lawyer in me would say, "yeah technically the ToS wasn't 100% clear under the previous ban, and therefore such and such person should no longer be banned".

    But on the other hand, I just have to say: use some common sense and stop trying to cheese everything.

    I do have a question about the new updated aggro abuse rule still. The rule only specifically says actions that cause a mob to freeze and not attack at all. But in the specific Nib example it says (damage only being done by clouds).

    So are people allowed to still attack that boss from down below or not???
     
  7. OP
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    Damn Orange Mushroom

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    Ryoku
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    Yes, you can still take damage only from Clouds, but Nib must be attacking. As shown in Fishy's video.
     
  8. OP
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    Damn Orange Mushroom

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    Ryoku
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    Use common sense and stop cheesing everything? So before the rules were updated, are some people not going to stand on the GS2 stairs and not take damage, but instead get hit by the mobs and waste more pots? Maybe if we were taking 0 damage from Nib and the Clouds, then people would have been questioning what the hell is going on.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. echung379
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    echung379 Brown Teddy

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    Common sense is subjective, so that's why there are rules in place. Honestly if I were staff I would err on the side of banning someone only in a case when it's proven beyond reasonable doubt that this person knowingly and intentionally committed an offense and clearly went against the ToS. It seems like in the current ML justice system, people are getting jailed for something ambiguous and then they have to bear the high burden of proving their innocence. Both situations have their pros and cons. If the ban criteria is too high, then there will inevitably be some people who commit offenses that get away with it. But if the ban criteria is too low, then you're going to jail some innocent people. It's up to interpretation, but in my opinion, it's worse to jail innocent people because you're going to make these innocent people turn away from the game and quit. Well one could argue, "what about the people who commit crimes and walk free? That's not fair!!" This is where it would be appropriate to give them a warning, and keep a more careful eye on them and if they commit the offense again, then at that point it's more clear that it was intentional and you can just ban them then.

    Now this isn't to say you have to issue warnings to every single player who commits any crime. For example, if someone is blatantly advertising MapleRoyals in the FM, which is a clear violation of the ToS, then they should just get banned straight up because that is beyond reasonable doubt that it's clearly against ToS. However, in this Nib case, there have been multiple arguments as to why the ToS was unclear on aggro abuse, and even things like how it was originally allowed in JMS. So there is a big lack of clarity here, so issue a warning first and then keep an eye on this player if you want.

    Back to your point. I'm not sure if you've done Nib before, but it's not common sense that you can't attack from the bottom right corner as a ranged attacker. This is because when you're in a party that includes a warrior, and the warrior stands in the middle of the clouds, then as a ranged attacker you are actually allowed to stand in the bottom right corner. It's because the warrior standing in the middle triggers the Nib attacks (even though in this scenario, no one in the party gets hit by the Nib attacks anyway). But if a ranged class decides to solo Nib (as was the case in this ban), then you can't stand in the bottom right corner anymore.

    So imagine you've always done Nib with a party and you're told to stand in the bottom right corner by your party members. So you do this like 10+ times. And then one day you can't find a party so you decide to solo it. Intuitively you're just going to stand in the same spot that you've always been standing. I mean yes, the ship no longer attacks the platforms on the left, but you were never hit by those attacks in the first place (only the clouds hit you in both scenarios), so why would you suddenly move to the left unless someone told you beforehand?
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  10. OP
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    Damn Orange Mushroom

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    Ryoku
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    Whatever the case may be and whether or not the people that were banned is left to hold a ban offense or set free, this whole debate and the actions taken after the ban has left a sour taste in my mouth. I hope future players get a fair warning (in game) and won't have to deal with this issue. New players are most likely not going to read the TOS and care about mob freezing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. Zooploop
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    Zooploop Master Chronos

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    You can attack from the clouds but you have to be in the left side of the clouds so it still attacks. However as you've shown the "damage only being done by clouds" part can be very confusing for someone who fights it the first time. Nibergen will 99% of the time never touch you even if you stand underneath it. However very rarely it will bounce and touch your character, doing 8k+ damage. Now for a range character to move right to avoid that touch damage would seem like clear cut abuse.

    The problem is that character may very well not even know that touch damage exists. When I first fought Nibergen it wasn't until the 2nd body I discovered it can in fact hit you with touch damage (I was soloing). So I was sure for a major portion of the fight only the clouds will ever damage me, and we know that being on the left won't get you banned. Now from the perspective of a ranged character. They could initially start in the bottom left portion of cloud, attack it for a good while and try to move to the right. They find they can stand in the right corner giving more space to attack it easier. And then they're banned.

    I myself could have been banned if I moved right to attack a little portion of time. It's not like someone with aggro in Vergamot moving to the left side of the map and causing it to freeze and not attack at all, because you're being pelted with attacks constantly prior to that point. In Nibergen you never get hit with any abilities, for someone none the wiser they wouldn't understand the difference in it attacking at all. The kicker in all of this is the spot isn't even bannable in itself, you just need a sacrificial lamb to be standing under Nibergen so it will keep attacking.

    Anyway it's better there is some clarity vs none at all, but if you guys really don't want to warn people vs outright banning them, making something that anyone who fights Nibergen will see explaining to them what will get them banned, could go a long way. Information on a forum is no excuse because people will only come looking for it after they get banned.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
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  12. echung379
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    echung379 Brown Teddy

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    Couldn't agree with this any more. This is spot on.
     
  13. hsmule5430
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    hsmule5430 Slimy

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    can we just fix nibergen so its not possible to abuse? its like a bug that give u free mesos if u click something but u keep it to catch people
     
  14. Precel
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    Precel Zakum Retired Staff

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    This is being looked into by staffs wackomush
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  15. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    All we'd really have to do is put automatic warps (like if you jump near Frederick in the FM or those pits in the corners in land of wild boars), all over the bottom of that boss map, so anyone that falls down instantly gets warped up to where they are supposed to be to fight.
     
  16. OP
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    Damn Orange Mushroom

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    It's not that simple. Even if they could, that area must still be useable for other attackers if one is already taking aggro on the bottom left side.
     
  17. echung379
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    echung379 Brown Teddy

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    Can we get any update from GM? If you prefer we can PM too just lmk thank you!!
     
  18. OP
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    Damn
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    Damn Orange Mushroom

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    Ryoku
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    If and when you guys do come up with a solution, I think it's only fair that the ban offense is removed from those that were affected by this whether or not not they meant to abuse it because as stated by shotshot, staff can't promote favoritism and they must treat everyone equally.

    AerikaAerika would have never been banned if something was done 5-6 months ago when this issue first came up. Nothing was implemented and they were punished. If other players are going to get a fair warning, so should everyone else.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Jess
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    Jess Pac Pinky

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    When Neo Tokyo first came out I was banned and people killing Nibergen at the time got the hint and word spread (by 1 announcement, through other people, and several forum threads) that it was a bannable offense. Now that a new wave of players are at NT it is an issue of people being unaware. There could just be a blue warning message explaining the aggro abuse ban everytime you go into the boss maybe?
     
  20. Althariisa
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    Althariisa Slimy

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    My question is.... how are characters able to walk on the sky on nibergen? its pretty unlogic. owo.

    And out of all jokes i think TOS should be changed, because i think a warning its pretty required. You know that no much of us read the ToS and you mean it in the end on In Game ToS Display when you first log on "You didn´t read anything don´t you?, dont worry we know that no one likes to read ToS". even if you request after to read them "To make sure of what you agree on", many of us dont read them anyways and.. People that doenst are so experiment on the concept of "Aggro" and things like that. (This is the first game that i learned what aggro means). And the other people that doesnt know english so much.

    So then the change on the ToS i request is on the Offense count: It says: 1st Offence: 7-days ban, 2nd Offence: Account ban. So my request is to change it as: 1st Offence: A warning, 2nd Offence: 7-days Ban, 3rd Offence: Account Ban.

    So with a warning, you can prevent those things happens, Because you know that its pretty a human nature to search the things that is more convenient to us..EVEN if we are not sure we re doing good. Its wise to try to teach more than punising. because this is a awesome game.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
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