Information [Alpha Test] Challenges System - HP Wash Alternative

Ah okay, that makes more sense, how unfortunate
This is something that staff is discussing btw, but no promises on anything on "insta-AP resets" yet.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with his comment. The Staff posted their proposal and left the comments open to have feedback from all because there's a possibility of tweaking what they created so far to be even better. We can't all be Yes-man at the first sight of everything. Dissent should be encouraged even if it ends up not being used or possible.

 

Something else worth noting about bloodwash situations is that it's possible a character is unable to reset all of the AP out of HP/MP. It's possible to reach the minimum of both HP and MP because when you put points in HP and take them out, you end up with less HP, so it's technically possible to bottom out with AP left in the category and no access to the challenges system.

The only way out would actually be to grab some ints and HP wash, ironically enough.

 

This is actually a really good point. I’d imagine the number of characters this actually affects is incredibly small but it’s also unfair they get stuck in wash purgatory like that. Something to consider when finalizing eligibility requirements when this is implemented, anyways.

 

A meta will come out in the end, but this isn't meant to be a way for people who are already investing into HP Washing to switch to. It's a way for new players, or people who don't want to deal with the hassle of washing, to be able to access at a new baseline.

It's not going to compete with washing, it's not meant to compete with washing.

Challenge HP
Pros:

• Can play the game normally from 1-200
• No need to invest NX into APR
• No need to rely on leech effectively for 130+ levels
• Don't have to invest into INT gear in order to keep your damage up while you train

Cons:

• Not as much flexibility
• You are unable to HP wash once you pick this method
• Cannot reach HP cap(without HB)

Washing HP
Pros:

• High flexibility
• Can effectively keep most of your damage if you have the NX/INT equips for it
• Have the option of reaching 30k HP without HB
• Earlier access to bossing compared to Challenge HP

Cons:

• Invest heavily into INT, effectively nuking your damage and requiring carry/leech unless you have the Equips for it.
• Takes a long time to get NX to buy enough APR
• Takes a lot of planning and forethought
• Won't be effective until 120 or later, depending on your goals.

There are more to list but those are just a few on each. The normal method has to be superior, unless we want to invalidate everyone who spent years getting their characters up. This new method just lowers the bar to entry.

 

You gave shape to my emotions.

 

By lowering the max HP, you are putting the DKs at a lower actual HP when they want to zerk the same % as a 30k HP DK.
To maintain their old threshold hp value to survive whatever boss, DK need to zerk at a higher % which hurts their damage with the new zerk.

I am just pointing out an obvious flaw in this HP progression plan that would make DK's zerk being even less efficient until much much later in the game. As if we should just rename DK into HB mule.
There is new meta, and there is also old meta, and there is also obvious things that just doesn't work.

 

Old HP washing is still a thing, though. They've merely added this for players who a) are new to the game, b) are unfamiliar/uncomfortable with hp washing, and c) haven't been voting/saving vote NX for 9 months.

If this was a complete replacement I honestly would see your point, but it's an option, a choice you can make when you hit 100. It's not replacing HP washing even partially, as the original post states:

 

No Warrior with real endgame aspirations, especially DrK, should seriously consider the challenge system as currently presented as an option since the HP ceiling is so restrictive relative to how easy it is to reach higher HP on those classes. DrK damage is tied to HP%, which incentivizes maxing HP as often as possible: putting a limiter on it hinders your survivability by leaving you with either worse Zerk damage or lower functional HP compared to a regular-wash character. Washing a DrK to max HP with HB isn’t even that lengthy (it’s much closer to 4 or 5 months if anything). It’s also a class that can facilitate a pivot from non-washing to washing well (my DrK started the process at 50 and reached the 30k threshold with HB at early 14x without ever adding base INT above 4).

On another note, Mage mains (especially any Bishop with endgame aspirations) should entirely ignore the system as currently presented too. Converting excess MP into stales provides so much ceiling survivability that the current thresholds are significantly below valuable HP numbers.

 

Yeah hard to see why warriros should complain about this system, it's not for them. Starting at lvl1 with 0 NX you can very easily hit 30k at lvl ~150-170 with 40-80 base int and using the cheap int gear slots.

Edit: Forgot about the situation where you leveled a warrior high enough without washing and need the gains retrospectively, I suppose especially DrKs have a point there.

 

First of all, I said please read because it's a long paragraph and it's addressing a serious problem that many, me included are facing. no need to be sassy, this post is to give opinions and possible solutions to problems for this new challenge system that I love and I've been waiting for SO long, and yet I face a wall when shown an 'Eligibility' section that puts me and many in a position that we never wanted to be in the first place for Hp washing... Voting for months to participate in the game.

It's not unreasonable, some people started washing even being against it just because the system itself almost forces you to do so, if you wanna play in the long run with your character and not be crippled like me. If you would have read carefully the post I made, I never washed, never added INT points, just dropped every level I could raw points into HP until I could at least survive one hit for mobs on my level range, even at the cost of not doing damage, but letting me play the game although in a very difficult way.

I'm so more than happy for the new system, but no one is gonna be 'really happy' if it wasn't being excluded unless you meet some criteria that the old system made you fall in to 'fit'.

The whole point of the new system is that people who don't wash, don't want to vote for months, that's the whole point. you are not fixing it by giving it a side option that requires the same thing to 'participate' as an old character.

Doesn't have to be when you have the power to make it right, not just for new characters, but for the old abandoned characters that wanna come back.

Again, let's not invalidate people that already grinded for 1, 2+ years their characters without the proper HP to play the game achieving monster rings, quests, PQ items, chairs, etc., that's a lot of commitment, time, and effort to just come to say 'Just remake'.

 

Please read

Give us a number. How many blood washed points? Bloodwashing 50 levels of points (the entirety of 3rd job) would be an absolutely absurd 6.3k extra bloodwashed hp. To reset this extreme amount, it'd take 1m nx, or ~200 days of voting @5.5k average nx/vote, before accounting for nx drops.

The bigger issue here isn't the months of vote but rather hitting the minimum threshold and being unable to remove points from hp/mp. But at what point should staff be unable/unwilling to protect users making poor decisions from themselves? When does it become acceptable to tell users to remake characters they put stats they shouldn't have. I know plenty of players with bloodwashed mules who would love to have free points back to dump into luk mules.

I don't have a hard and fast number to those questions, but why not just replay the bm and experience the game anew? It isn't the same game as whatever year you rage quit it.

 

There's a bit of a quirk to this system: when you "opt in" to the challenge system, you also lose your ability to MP wash yet receive no gains for the trade-off. In other words, for a mage you would deliberately "opt out" of this system until you've satisfied whatever MP washing you're doing, and then opt in to this system at whatever level you happen to be at that point and accrue a bunch of HP as a reward without needing to HP wash on top of that.

Maybe this should also set MP to a particular threshold value based on class as well?

 

Bloodwashing more or less 20 lvls is about 2 months straight of voting to deplete the points added into HP

People don't hp wash because they don't want to vote for months straight just for this purpose. It is because of that, on top of the other disadvantages that hp washing carries, such as not doing damage and leveling up by leeching.

Mhm, it isn't a poor decision if you don't wanna vote to hp wash for almost a year, have a useless INTLord or INT BM, and still make playable the game with the old meta, also bloodwashing is the same as hp washing by moving MP>HP the goal is the same, it's just 2 different methods and it was never told that it was going to be a consequence later on. (And im actually a lucky case because i never added points to INT, i cant even imagine pleople who blood washed and on top they have a TON of points in INT, that would take an eternity to restore back to normal.)

I mean it doesn't have to be hard, why make it just so hard on purpose, by saying 'its the way it is' when the solution can be made by devs/game owners and be implemented in a very simple way so anyone can transition to this new meta and enjoy their cripple chars who cant currently boss or do other content. Again it doesn't hurt anyone just to reset INT / HP stats by accepting the challenge and adjusting to the new thresholds.

I didn't rage quit don't try to paint an anger moment at the game when it never happened, I was kinda slowly leaving the game unconsciously when facing the reality the more I tried to grind by myself and getting KO. or when not being able to boss because of my HP, and as I've stated before:

Not everyone has to be forced to experience the game from scratch and have to grind what they already did, this happened because of the old system that the vast majority dislikes, then there should be a transition for everyone that has already started, not just to be excluded imo, I guess at the end they would evaluate if it can be made or not, but im soooooo sure of what I stated by having so many friends in this position that were so hyped and now they face this wall of having to vote for months to adequate to the new system.

 

I believe it's mentioned on the original thread that Mages are excluded from the MP wash restriction when opting in to the challenge system. That being said there's still very little incentive for a mage to participate.

 

Yeah, HP/MP share the same pool.

So if you added 1 AP to HP and want to remove that AP point from HP you can just move 1 point from MP to any stat being STR, DEX, INT, LUK lowering HP point will just lose more HP than what you added in with fresh AP. +20(or so) -50.

 

This is the only point I'll reply to. I'm not really contesting your points because I believe this is the most important one, which makes the rest slightly irrelevant.

This Challenge HP thing is not meant for us who have already planned out washing. It's just not. It's for people to get their feet wet after they've gotten through the majority of the nostalgic part of the game.

This goes back to harping on people who tell newbies they have to, that they're worthless, unless they optimize their gameplay the moment they get to character creation.

I understand and recognize your arguments, I think in any other context, they would be valid. But we're now asking for a new system to be optimized right from the get-go, for one class specifically, because to anyone interested in washing, this isn't the path to take.

Let's allow casual players to hit a certain point and make that decision, see if it's worth it for them, not for us. Let's stop hyperoptimizing things for what's supposed to be a casual means of getting extra HP.

 

Umm as this is currently planned you're going to fuck people over who just made a character with like 300 base int but now want to do the new system. They now still have to do months of waiting for voting and then waste that NX to get a usable character, might as well reroll.

I don't even think it's out of malice but misunderstanding that situation.

Here's the very easy solution: just ask if a character wants to reset their base INT while they are opting in.

 

If you're aiming for 300 base, you're completely unaffected by changes unless washing extremely inefficiently. Just make anothet char and play that instead while voting on your inted char.