Information [Alpha Test] Challenges System - HP Wash Alternative

Xizz3l · Oct 21, 2022

Absolutely amazing - with this I'm already looking forward to playing again <3

bread289 · Oct 22, 2022

eggcellent

Zorele · Oct 22, 2022

Hello, I just wanted to add my 2 cents to the discussion. First things first, I think this system is completely marvelous and I'm glad it’s being implemented. Hp washing as a whole is a flawed design. It requires you to wait an absurd amount of time to gain hp to be eligible for certain bosses while in reality, as in most games, the only true requirement to a boss should be skill, level and damage. This might be a bit controversial but I'm one to think that “invalidating the efforts of players who washed” is a small price to pay for how beneficial the implementation of this system would be. Maybe once upon a time legends lacked content and washing was the main way to increase the longevity but the truth is, at the current state, the game has a lot of content and still very challenging gear progression that can definitely take an absurdly long amount of time for even the most hardcore of players. I think this system should only be the start. I believe having higher HP should be a convenience, not a requirement to participate in content. With that being said, I think this system plus the defense rework system should allow players to enjoy the whole process without being overwhelmed with a flawed system. HP washing still retains some benefits, higher HP means you save pot money it means you have “higher chance” to survive if you were to make any kind of mistake, amongst others. I can’t really say I've kept up with the recent bossing scene but i still read forums and i see frequent complaints regarding the state of Drks. With that being said, this is why I think the system shouldn't stop there. We all know how zerk works, getting the maximum damage out of it requires you to be below a certain threshold. In some important bosses, getting below that threshold is too risky and not worth it. The defense rework added on top of this would lower the amount of damage taken by darks therefore allowing them to mostly do full damage in all the content instead of being “HB mules”. (As an extra, I believe this defense rework should include a flat armor/mdef to % reduction and perhaps that % conversion should vary class by class to keep everything in check). This also benefits other lower hp attackers. Being able to do other content perhaps without the “need” of hb (Before it is refuted, this is already achieved by washers). As I stated before, having a lot of hp will definitely have benefits compared to not having it, but i completely disagree with it making you ineligible for content participation. Keeping an entire system flawed just for the satisfaction of us players is completely wrong and we should view this objectively and think about the newer players to come who are turned off by this whole system.

zeroxlr · Oct 25, 2022

xiaoyaoz said: ↑

Hello everyone!

Let's talk about HP washing, a mechanic (be it originally intended or not) that's arguably one of the most controversial aspects of the game.

Indeed, it carries its fair share of problems:

It requires lots of technical knowledge, which should be researched into from the start of the character lifetime (pumping INT to gain excess MP, that can then be converted into HP);

It cripples the character for a significant portion of its leveling lifetime, via unnatural INT addition;

It requires a tremendous amount of vote cash, which forces a time gating on the progress, with daily voting.

Aside from the negative aspects, washing brings a few benefits to the server, which can't be ignored:

It creates an extra layer of depth to the game, with long-term planning, long-term goals which may contribute to player retention;

It promotes an "artificial" balance on classes, as some may be more "beginner-friendly" due to requiring little to no HP washing investment;

Voting for HP washing supports the exposure of MapleLegends.

Having dangerous end-game content, in terms of damage, is always gonna be something we want to work with; HP progression and character survivability is something we believe to be a core part of the game.

As mentioned in the 2022 roadmap, MapleLegends has been looking into ways to rework this progression, to turn it into something more ingrained in the game fantasy.

We mentioned a possible route being a Defense formula rework; but for now, we will focus on the raw HP aspect. Naturally, this is not expected to be our only change to the system, we will be gathering feedback and deciding how to proceed further based on that.

So, HP gain system. There are plenty of factors that need to be considered in dealing with a change to it; with a 7 years old server, a complete fundamental revamp (removal of HP washing) is simply impossible, without invalidating the efforts and dedication put by our community into tailoring their characters for our content.
Washing however also twists the game balance in ways that are hard to account for, such as supposedly-fragile classes able to withstand touch damage from endgame bosses.

After lengthy discussions and feedback reading, our aim became to offer a completely alternative route.
The old HP washing system will still be in place, it will be treated as the "hardcore" way to enable oneself to gain an edge in survivability, at the cost of lengthy waits and painful int-washing.

In addition to that, we now introduce the Challenges system, an alternative way to gain HP.

Challenges are a way to permanently obtain extra HP by completing specific game tasks. Think of it as a set of small quests, custom-tailored for each class and level threshold, with the reward being extra survivability, balanced for your level bracket.

「 Challenges System 」

The Challenges system will work as follows:

At level 100, a player will be introduced to the system. They will be offered their first set of challenges, based on their class.

Challenge progression will automatically start once the challenges are presented.

For example, if the challenge is to "kill 5 Snails", farming Snails after receiving the challenges will automatically count.

Every 10 levels, until level 180 inclusive is reached, a new set of Challenges will be available. Each set will be more difficult to clear.

These new Challenge sets can be unlocked only after having fully cleared all the previous sets.

Upon completing a Challenge, the player can redeem their prize.

This can be done at any time and level.

「 Eligibility 」

The base HP increase prize can only be redeemed if:

The player has no AP invested in their HP/MP pool;

If they have any, they can take them out via AP Resets in order to be eligible.

AND their HP is under a certain threshold

The formula we used to calculate the HP eligibility is actually a bit more complicated than this, as it projects your HP to the next threshold level to see if you are eligible.

「 Rewards System 」

The first time the player tries to redeem the prize from a Challenge, they will be presented with a choice:

OPTION 1: Base HP is permanently increased to the specified amount below, and the character will be unable to spend ability points into HP/MP*

This action is irreversible.

Regular HP washing will no longer be possible.

OPTION 2: Keep their HP/MP pool unlocked. Doing so will not grant any base HP increase upon completion, but some other minor prizes that are yet to be decided.

*Please note that regular HP increase via level-up will still be obtained, and HP equipment can still be worn.

Now that we've given a rough description of the mechanics, let's discuss the main benefit.

Each HP Challenge set will grant the right amount of HP to reach a specific threshold.
There are 9 thresholds, every 10 levels, from level 100 to level 180.

HP Thresholds

Levels Mages Warriors Bucc Shad Others Note
100 1,520 7,000 5,600 3,200 3,200 -
110 1,720 8,350 6,750 3,700 3,950 -
120 1,930 9,850 8,050 4,300 4,800 -
130 2,150 11,500 9,500 5,000 5,750 CWKPQ w/o HB
140 2,380 13,300 11,100 5,800 6,800 Zakum w/o HB
150 2,620 15,250 12,850 6,700 7,950 HT w/ HB
160 2,870 17,350 14,750 7,700 9,200 -
170 3,130 19,600 16,800 8,800 10,550 HT w/o HB
180 3,400 22,000 19,000 10,000 12,000 PB w/ HB
The thresholds represent the HP that the character is guaranteed to have at that level by completing all Challenges of the respective set.
On the rightmost column of the table we have written a few noteworthy HP requirements that are overcome with this new system.

To put it simply, the HP Challenges system aims to trade the freedom and comfort to pick your preferred HP amount at your preferred level, in favor of a HP washing-free journey that still guarantees content participation.

Because such a system is extremely delicate and irreversible, this first alpha release only features Cassandra giving you a quick rundown of your possible HP gains via Challenges. Challenges are not currently live.
By talking with Cassandra, you can get an idea of how much HP you would obtain from the Challenges, if you were to start them at your current level with your current HP amount.

Please feel free to give us any feedback you may have about our proposed system!

「 Q&A 」

What are "challenges"?
Challenges are generally things to do that require decent amount of time and effort to complete. We hope to create challenges that promote active gameplay and interactions with others. (p.s.: we are open to ideas!)

What is this "HP/MP AP locked" route?
Upon opting in this route, players will no longer be able to add or reset AP into HP/MP anymore.

Why are we locking AP into HP/MP?
To prevent players from abusing the system for faster washing toward 30k HP characters.

Do the HP thresholds include HP from equips?
No, the HP thresholds are the base max HP only. Characters may still be able to benefit from wearing HP equips to get more HP.

Why is the HP threshold chosen and limited in that way?
The HP threshold choice was done in consideration of the appropriate HP a character should have for those levels, while keeping things challenging and inclusive of the skills that the job has. Hyper Body will also be needed for the hardest-hitting bosses in game.

I'm currently washing with INT, does this mean I'm ruined?
No, you can still opt-in to the new system! But remember to remove all the AP from your HP/MP first.

I have washed my character, but I have lower HP than the HP threshold stated. Can I still opt-in?
Yes, you can still opt-in; but the HP reward will be adjusted to match the HP threshold.

Can I do this challenge at level 200? And if so, will it affect the HP reward?
Yes, you will be able to do the challenges: the HP reward per threshold will be based on a formula that includes your current HP, and what it was supposed to be at the appropriate challenge threshold level. For more information, we encourage you to check Cassandra to know what you'll be getting exactly for completing each challenge threshold!

Is the old washing system gone?
No! The old washing system will still be in place for those that want to get higher HP characters.

Can I still do the challenges to get more HP even if I'm over the HP threshold?
Yes, you can still do the challenges, but it may not reward you more HP until the higher level challenge threshold. If you are above all the thresholds, then it simply won't reward you any more HP. Please talk with Cassandra to know what will be rewarded exactly.

I'm a mage. Can I still MP wash after accepting this HP quest?
Yes: while the challenges don't offer MP increase rewards, you will still be allowed to invest AP into your MP pool, as a Mage class.
Remember, however, that you will NOT be allowed to invest AP into HP, even as a Mage!

When will this be available?
We do not have an ETA. However, while this first feedback-gathering phase is ongoing, we will be working on building up the code behind it; a testing phase, with the challenges available for direct testing, will be coming in one of our next patches. If that goes well, the full implementation will follow shortly after.

From the community, we would like to hear what you think about the proposed HP washing alternative, and to test if the HP reward amount is working and makes sense.

In addition, should you be interested in the inner workings of our calculations, here is a spreadsheet that lets you play around with your level/HP/Challenge threshold, while displaying the formulas applied. Feel free to test the system, and let us know how it goes.

We look forward from hearing from you!

Thank you,
The MapleLegends Team
Click to expand...

I was wondering...

How long will the old washing system be kept in place?

Will the old washing system be indefinitely kept?

or

Will there be an improved Challenge System that allows for 30k hp / mp across all jobs and beginners?

Zorele · Oct 26, 2022

After reading some of the comments and looking more at the HP thresholds offered for each class I grew to the conclusion that particularly for warriors and shadowers i believe the HP offered is somewhat underwhelming. These 2 classes are considered the beginner friendly classes historically where you can barely wash and still partake in all content essentially while also working as "tanks". that being said, I believe the main incentive for these classes has always been the ease of getting into them and with the implementation of this system I believe this stops being true. I personally believe (considering the ease of washing and their historic friendly nature as the main incentive) warriors should be able to reach somewhere between 25-30k giving them the luxury of not relying on HB for any of the content. When it comes to shad even with the existence of meso guard I believe giving them less HP than even ranged attackers is an insult, the truth is that DP is a major mechanic in a lot of the bosses and again this is historically friendly class for newcomers where the main incentive is to be able to partake with little to no washing. That being said I think shadowers should be able to get at the very least the same as ranged attackers or more perhaps 13k~ since that allows them to survive some added DP scenarios (This is a melee class, it definitely needs more functional HP than ranged) while allowing them to participate in PB without HB. I believe this to be the correct approach since the warriors and shadowers still keep their incentive of having an edge over other classes as a starter (Being the only classes that don't require HB to participate in the endgame content). I believe doing otherwise will just mean there's virtually no real benefit to picking shadowers or warriors since all the classes would still need HB

LeonardoJF · Oct 26, 2022

anyway, some people come just to share hate, let the system be implemented, then will be a real test and true Feedbacks/rework if needed

neecole10 · Oct 31, 2022

This is an amazing implementation and much needed for old and new players! Kudos to the maplelegends team!! You guys never cease to amaze me with your talent and efforts into this game! This has definitely revived my interest in mapling again, this time more casually with my current chars.

My DK already has 27k hp from washing so I'm quite happy with that, the nx and time spent leeching all my chars is a sunk cost that I accepted and I will continue washing until 30k hp, maybe.

My BM however is poorly washed and only has 7.4k hp, because my hp was so low I didn't feel comfortable bossing beyond CWKPQ, ZAK, Scar etc. So am really excited for this! I see some saying 12k hp isn't high enough for some end game bosses and I do agree we should be able to tank 1 hit without relying on HB.

It would also be nice to hp wash with nx and complete challenges at the same time but I understand if that's not possible.

I'm also stoked to finally boss with my friends who didn't hp wash (either didn't know or don't have the time to). And now it's gonna be fun to do quests together to complete challenges together as well!

An extra bit I just thought it'd be fun to add. Feel free to ignore.
My suggestions for challenges:
1. No mini map bosses (pretty please), the ones with card drops, those are already camped to heck for cards and equip.

2. Don't level lock pt members' levels in a party. Personally, I (lvl140-150) would very much enjoy helping my lvl100+ friends complete challenges. But I don't know if this would maybe make the challenge too easy?

3. Extra options for challenges, for example: either kill X number of mobs with a party OR HT 10 times OR collect x number of untradeable etc each. Alternatively, have a list of challenges per level threshold and complete 2/3 or 4/5 (or even 9/10) options to complete. This way, players who don't feel comfortable bossing or whatever have options.

4. As for mob killing and collecting etc challenges, the number should be proportionate to the number of pt members. So, a higher amount the more pt members.

5. Like CWKPQ, must have specific classes in parties to complete challenges. Also, have specific classes help each other out complete challenges. (Like the El Nath PQ for stance and dragon's breath).

6. Challenges that involves travelling around the whole maple world, either killing specific mini bosses (like pap, rav, scar), killling x mobs or collect x etcs along the way.

7. Every party member must craft specific items to hand in (From a number of items to choose from (or a specific list, it has to be challenging after all) and you'd have to craft more if you have fewer party members).

8. Lastly, just throwing this out there, pt members must collectively collect an x amount of mesos from specific mobs or maps. (Like 50m mesos from just snails.... LOL I'm KIDDING... sort of... would be hilarious though) Whether to hand in the mesos in or not, I'm not sure.

LeonardoJF · Oct 31, 2022

For the Challenge, is nice if have bossrun and etc drop of low and high level mobs, so it move market with services and etc drops to low lv and high level farm

Redwop · Nov 5, 2022

I feel the nine thresholds could be split into three tiers: {100,110,120}, {130,140,150}, {160,170,180}.

The first tier could make use of what you have suggested with Option 2, namely to allow players to "Keep their HP/MP pool unlocked". That also opens it to players who still have points in INT, and this gives them time to take it out before they start tier 2. Option 1 can applied to tier 2 onwards.

Besides, as each set is said to progressively become "more difficult to clear", I see no reason to apply the restriction of Option 1 to Tier 1. The small HP boost isn't enough to move players closer to getting "30K HP characters" anyway — even for those who have washed prior to participating.

flow · Nov 5, 2022

shck said: ↑

And 19k (20,040 in fact) excl. HP equips for Buccs seems pretty high.

EDIT: Buccs can realistically do PB without HB at 20,040 base HP if you include all possible HP equips. At 600 w.def I take 21.6k ~ 22.8k touch damage from PB, and that value (600 w.def) can be still further increased.
Not sure if that is something that was accounted for, but if this goes through with values unchanged, I hope Buccs get a nerf somewhere else in the same patch when this is released.
Click to expand...

Nerfing buccs because they're good on challenges system? doesn't seems fair, definitely bucc need some changes but not because they can reach 19k on challenges, honestly i found it pretty low for a melee attacker, he's going to have ways lower surviveability than a challenge shadower.
Also using all hp equips is just a meme, no one do that.
I never did PB before, but bringing a 19k hp buccanner seems just too risk, but bring a 13k ranged/shadower? looks better for me
Even a RANGED with 70%+ avoidrate can get 30K HP, why in the world a melee class need a nerf because he can reach 19k with challenges?

-ovv · Nov 6, 2022

Before this thread:
People: We should be able to tank every boss with HB!

After this thread:
People: We should be able to tank every boss without HB!

flow · Nov 6, 2022

-ovv said: ↑

Before this thread:
People: We should be able to tank every boss with HB!

After this thread:
People: We should be able to tank every boss without HB!
Click to expand...

After After this thread:
People: We should make Hyper Body useful

CreamPuffDad · Nov 6, 2022

flow said: ↑

After After this thread:
People: We should make Hyper Body useful
Click to expand...

We should make HB *more* useful (undispellable and reaches the whole map).

Caenyss · Nov 6, 2022

This sounds good and maybe it will help fill the void that is the lack of quests at higher levels.

Estrahl · Nov 6, 2022

CreamPuffDad said: ↑

We should make HB *more* useful (undispellable and reaches the whole map).
Click to expand...

Joking aside, if HB was the only thing that could break HP cap I think it'd be pretty damn useful lol

flow · Nov 6, 2022

Estrahl said: ↑

Joking aside, if HB was the only thing that could break HP cap I think it'd be pretty damn useful lol
Click to expand...

48k hp nl? :monkas:

Estrahl · Nov 6, 2022

flow said: ↑

48k hp nl? :monkas:
Click to expand...

I mean it's gonna take you like 5 years to get one, but for every Warrior it's certainly a nice easy 9 month goal.

WickiidWiz · Nov 6, 2022

This should be really interesting!

LeonardoJF · Nov 6, 2022

Estrahl said: ↑

I mean it's gonna take you like 5 years to get one, but for every Warrior it's certainly a nice easy 9 month goal.
Click to expand...

50k hp
achilles
guaridan

Beaver · Nov 7, 2022

I love the idea of this new system. I say lets go for it. The one option I think needs to be given is a one-time instant removal of all AP from hp and mp that disables washing and allows players to instantly opt in to the new system without having to save up vote cash to remove their AP from hp and mp.

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Levels	Mages	Warriors	Bucc	Shad	Others	Note
100	1,520	7,000	5,600	3,200	3,200	-
110	1,720	8,350	6,750	3,700	3,950	-
120	1,930	9,850	8,050	4,300	4,800	-
130	2,150	11,500	9,500	5,000	5,750	CWKPQ w/o HB
140	2,380	13,300	11,100	5,800	6,800	Zakum w/o HB
150	2,620	15,250	12,850	6,700	7,950	HT w/ HB
160	2,870	17,350	14,750	7,700	9,200	-
170	3,130	19,600	16,800	8,800	10,550	HT w/o HB
180	3,400	22,000	19,000	10,000	12,000	PB w/ HB

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