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An Identity for Dark Knight

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Tarnished, Jul 25, 2022.

Do you want to see these changes implemented?

  1. 1. Yes, I want DK to be a better Support

    8 vote(s)
    27.6%
  2. 2. Yes, I want DK to be a riskier attacker

    14 vote(s)
    48.3%
  3. 3. No, I want other changes for DK (please elaborate)

    5 vote(s)
    17.2%
  4. 4. No, I think DK is in a good state already

    2 vote(s)
    6.9%
  1. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Mixed Golem

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    I am but a biased noob who mains DK but I honestly think this class is suffering an identity crisis beyond the issues already afflicting all melees on MapleLegends.

    The crux of the issue is that DK is more or less deemed a support class because of HB, so it follows that DK should deal less DPS than other cleavers. While this is a fair assessment, HB is becoming increasingly optional for ultra-end-game players and furthermore I don't think an easily mule-able 2nd job skill should be the defining characteristic of the class. Additionally, there's an awkward gap in ML where HB actually is not enough bonus HP to keep un-washed players alive, while fully washed players don't need it at all.

    As a result, this class is a messy hodge-podge that's mediocre at support, mediocre at attacking, and has poor risk:reward. It's one of the most popular first character classes, but it's also mediocre at that because HP washing is absolutely required, it isn't a strong 1-man army like Hero/Pally/Shad, and it isn't very useful for helping your future roster like Mages. It's also really expensive in terms of pot costs and the infamous Sky Ski.

    IMO DK should pick 1 identity and lean into it, either as a strong supportive character or a high risk DPS powerhouse. Sitting on the fence across pretty much every metric leaves a lot to be desired. Here are my suggestions for possible changes that I don't think make the class OP but could make it way more rewarding to play:

    THE SUPPORT TANK:
    • Advanced HB: Add a 4th job ability that makes HB add the greater number between 60% or some FLAT amount of HP based on the DK's level (For example: You need a lv.190 DrK to add enough HP to keep an unwashed lv.170 ranged DPS alive in HT). This change will not affect late-game players whatsoever because you're still gunna get the 60% from normal HB if you're heavily washed, you're still not going to bring a DK into sweatlord 5-man HT squads, you're not going to get free efficiency on your multi-mages because it's hard AF to create a lvl 190 mule, and you're still going to wash your characters because you don't want to rely on access to a very high level DK. This change will however make a world of difference to newer players because now DK can actually keep their unwashed friends alive and have a purpose on this server. It lets noobs enter the game without the "range-anxiety" of their unwashed char being literally unplayable end-game and encourages community interaction.
    ---OR----

    THE YOLO ATTACKER:

    • Simple enough: Add 1 or 2 more stages to Berserk where you get increasingly more damage amp based on how low your HP is. You should be able to get some amount of benefit from your primary 4th job ability even if you want to sit at a comfortable amount of HP eating chips and watching Netflix. And, should the situation arise, you should be rewarded heavily for hovering at like 5% HP.
    • On paper, DrK absolutely should edge out the other cleavers considering the rest are practically invincible whereas DrK is one of the squishiest classes in the game. In practice it could be tuned so that most DKs will probably underperform even compared to where they are now in terms of DPS, but the class will be much more satisfying to play because the reward for risk is actually good. Berserk's current implementation and associated ML buff to 55% HP says to me: "you pretty much need this ability on all the time to be relevant, but you should also be at half HP to pay homage to original MS". A more compelling story would be "you can surpass other cleavers but only if you can master treading the line between life and death"
    General QoL Suggestions:
    • Triangular Sushi should cost way less, I don't really get why they're so expensive - because let's be real: it's a tax specifically targeted at DKs considering nobody else buys these even if they only cost 2k/ea. While it's true HB improves your mileage, other classes have their own ways of increasing pot efficiency that aren't even party buffs.
    • Make Sacrifice drop you into Berserk range immediately. Sacrifice is straight up useless currently because it takes like 5 swings to get you into Berserk range, most people use a combination of taking damage + roar which is a ham-fisted and finnicky approach. Sacrifice could work like Stimpack in Starcraft where you press it and your HP drops to Berserk range immediately. While this change leads to a loss of skill expression for experienced DKs, I personally don't feel like Berserk's power fantasy is squinting at your HP bar and jugging 3 different types of pots, it's more about knowing when it's safe to use Berserk.
    • DK should be allowed to limit healing from Bishop, it's silly being the odd-man out who has to run away from the rest of your party. IMO "Sacrifice" should be an ability that toggles your max HP, that way DKs don't have to stand in the dunce corner for any party content.
    • Make Roar cost flat HP. Assuming Sacrifice can drop you into Berserk range, I don't think it's the end of the world to let DKs get a few more roars per HP bar, similar to how Bishop can ult like 10 times off 1 mana bull. This change is going to let beginners leverage their DKs to make their new characters a little bit easier, die less often, and doesn't really seem abusive side from farming NX/Cards too efficiently.
     
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  2. JKNS
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    JKNS Selkie Jr.

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    7:29 AM
    Hero, Dark Knight, F/P Arch Mage, I/L Arch Mage, Bishop, Night Lord
    I do think the class needs some sort of damage buff: to me, a class that is more mechanically difficult to play should yield higher theoretical DPM in a comparable role, so I think DrK damage should in theory be higher than that of Hero's 3-cleave (and achieving it should be a measure of player skill, though Zerking itself is overblown in its difficulty: it's not braindead, but not necessarily something you're always on a knife's edge over either). Either improve Crusher's damage per line, give Zerk a higher boost or base Crit (the latter is debatable considering SE is already multiplicative on Zerk instead of additive), or flip Zerk to be GMS-like where you have to be above a certain HP instead to justify DrK damage being below Hero (because if you just have to be above X% HP, then that's even easier than charging Combo Orbs considering Zerk is passive and you can just heal all the time, so I'd be fine with doing less damage).

    None of the QoL suggestions are necessary, imo. You shouldn't be using Sushi as your main potion unless you want to light meso on fire: Ginsengs are more cost-efficient and a better default. You can comfortably use Ginsengs with the occasional Sushi weaved in to better maintain Zerk, though that's more of a thing with higher levels of Achilles giving you better margins to Zerk to begin with. 3k for a secondary potion isn't that bad.

    You should use Roar to shave large chunks of HP (9k with max HP) and Sacrifice for smaller chunks instead of the other way around. Lower level Sacrifice (it shouldn't really ever be higher than 3 considering both Power Crash and Spear Fury are better skills) has higher recoil which allows you to shave off meatier chunks of HP when you're in between the 16.5-20k HP range (anything higher is an instant Roar considering very few things in the game will smack you for 11k+ damage, which lets you comfortably Roar from over 20k). Roar itself has pitiful damage applications and is basically relegated to a Zerk entry-point tool, low-level card farming mechanism, and 15-target mob-aggro in CWK. Keep Roar the way it is: it'd need insane damage buffs to be worth using multiple times as it is now, and that'd probably break the class in 3rd job. It serves two totally different purposes between 3rd and 4th job.
     
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  3. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    So whats the point in heroes existing? they're already the worst class to make and you want drk buffs, so if you play DK you have easier wash, the second best 3rd job in the game, better at early 4 job,supportive skill useful for 90% of the server, better at mid and lategame, seems fair, anyway there's no need to do such posts about warriors in specific with the defense formula rework confirmed, they already told us warriors is going to be highly affected with that and its better to just wait, staff already know they're bad and theres alot of posts exactly like that, at least i have high hopes for how better DK zerking is going to be after that!
    No, DK have WAYS more damage than shadower in almost every situation, even with him cleaving 4 targets MapleF3


    Who said to you Shad is a 1-man army bro, its more like a 0,5 man on a army, and heroes dpm isn't very simmilar to DK? (notsure)

    While i agree with DK potion costs being too high, sky ski's isn't the only option for you to play, and there's no big gap between good sky's and bad ones, so if you save money you can get a good one for not too much more, the advanced HB is cool but its almost impossible to be implemented, the "yolo attacker" idea is cool and theres a bunch of posts about it, i'm not a Drk pro, but iirc skis with mid tier gears is worse than a faltizan, not sure about that.


    Washing a DrK is so easy, you can easily save your character if you played with 0 int till 70+, so theres absolutely 0 negative points in DrK washing, being WAYS more easier than another warriors.
    OFC, they deserve a buff i'm not denying it.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. OP
    OP
    Tarnished
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    Tarnished Mixed Golem

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    Heroes would still deal more effective DPM because of their consistency. I haven't been on ML long enough to know the whole story, but wasn't Hero deemed a pretty good attacker years ago? What changed? AFAIK from the perspective of a relatively new player, Hero is the strongest attacker you can make with 0 resources especially if you don't want to gimp your first play-though with >100 base INT - they're just rated poorly on tier lists that are based off optimal play where absurd funding is a given. My point is, Hero would still have the same purpose they have now: very durable, amazing cleaver, good single target dps, but overshadowed by other attackers.

    I'm not suggesting a straight DPS buff for DrK, but I think Berserk should be more of a deliberate choice based on windows of opportunity, because the way the skill is currently tuned you pretty much need it on all the time to even come close to the other warriors. In situations where the mobs 1shot you, it's usually not worth it to Berserk at all because it's not easy to enter/exit Berserk when the mob damage is so high, and the damage amp from proccing Berserk once in a while is hardly worth the pot cost.

    That being said I would rather see HB be better than changes to DrK's damage. HB isn't enough to keep squishies alive, which to me seems like the whole point of HB. But how I actually see it used most the time is just reducing pot burn.

    This is cool and I can't wait to see the changes. I think it would make a lot of sense for DrK to not be one of the most fragile classes, and I hope that becomes the case.

    I understand that washing is easy, I'm personally at max HP too. But when selling the server to newcomers there's a clear-cut difference between "you need to wash a little" versus "you do not need to wash whatsoever as long as you pick XYZ" because when someone has no commitment to a prospective game, they're not going to read a wall of text to understand the washing mechanic.
     
  5. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    It's difficult to balance DKs in terms of making them worth not only bringing, but utilizing rather than sitting in a corner. HB isn't a strong enough buff for me to slot it into a party in HT, but I've been known to bring the DK in for just echo, and toe DK is functional damage on preheads at least for modest damage. Past that nobody I run with really cares about the HB in HT, and from there the DK can just be ran into the ground as a sed target.

    In Pink Bean, they can kill statues just fine, but against the Pink Bean body they belong in the corner to HB everyone else. If you're only bringing a DK you're not carrying your own weight in most runs, even a bishop with 10% of the funding is a better attacker than a DK against PB. No amount of challenge or effort after a buff can produce worthwhile numbers in PB when you can do similar numbers with a bishop with their eyes closed, or better yet do double the damage on an AM while you're scrolling through discord on your phone.

    Other than that, the only other use my DK sees is as an HB/coin mule on Burgamot. It's essentially just something I keep in the corner because its numbers are so bad and difficult to utilize, even with 1 more completed weapon slot and 20 levels on my corsair.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    Heroes are ways worse than DKs, and you need like 2x more int than a drk to wash (very raw numbers)
    Drk is about 40 and heroes/pallies about 80 right?
    Also pallies are ways ways stronger than both for a newplayer or old whatever

    (assuming they do your suggested buffs to have more dmg than heroes) Same purpose of being the worst class in the game, cleaving cwkpq (like dk can do) and doing less dmg than dk single target, being worse in almost any time of the game progression, and... HB? DK is bad, of course, but buffing it too much 'll invalidate heroes even more, specially on damage, the game shouldn't be balanced around player skill issue, first of all thats is the class, learn to be profficient on zerk or be irrelevant (problematic thing on some bosses, hope it'll fix on next patch)
    I wish they add Empress cygnus on a future (idk if it is even possible), she is a very relevant cleave boss, and the worse problems of that classes is the lacking of cleaving content, back in the days they arent bad because HT was the endgame as a cleave boss and PB, i'm sure the staff made some edits on ht mechanics and things get worse too, but i weren't a legends player back in the days so idk.
    TLDR: i like the idea of different thresolds for zerk instead of only under XX%, that way they can make dk works different than heroes in some bosses, but i don't agree with they just being stronger than heroes because they zerk, i think HB, amazing leveling curve and his fma is fine enough and solve this issue.
    again, they REALLY deserve a buff, reinforcing their class identity, but not making they heroes but with more damage, like they did to corsair/nl.
     
  7. OP
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    Tarnished
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    Tarnished Mixed Golem

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    Well, that's player choice if you want to wash to 30k base HP on Hero/Pally. HP gain per wash is the same for all 3 warriors afaik

    DK is only "easier to wash" because you can assume you'll always have HB. But if we're going to include defensive skills, Powerguard will allow Hero to have nearly the same effective HP as a DK with HB in addition to also being able to receive HB. I've also personally died from debuff plenty before especially when it causes pet pot to not trigger in time, so washing to 30k base on DK isn't pointless either.

    In a party situation, Hero can effectively sit on bosses to avoid stuns while DrK is much more limited. Not only can you not be healed by your party making your pot costs much higher than the typical attacker, even on easier bosses like Zak/Scar it's not trivial to constantly tank 8k+ damage and maintain Berserk - you will mess up eventually and DPM will suffer. On harder hitting bosses you'll just straight up die as DrK

    All of this is to say I really don't think Hero would be invalidated by making DK either a stronger support or more volatile attacker. On the contrary I think it would exaggerate the reasons why you'd pick 1 over the other which is a good thing.

    Of course I might be biased, but I am making a Hero myself in addition to my DK because I really think their playstyles are different enough to merit the investment in a 2nd warrior.

    Theoretical damage is not the same as effective damage; The concept of Berserk as a high risk skill should absolutely deal more damage in theory because it's much less consistent, although in its current implementation the underlying assumption is you need to have it on all the time to even count as a real person. In practice I think Hero should still have a significant DPM lead for all but the most cracked DrK players, so neither class is invalidated it's just personal choice for difficulty and volatility. It would be a similar tradeoff as NL vs Corsair where generally people agree Corsair has higher potential, but NL is ultimately better at putting damage down.

    In a similar vein I think Shadower DPM is also misrepresented by DPS charts, because a lot of bosses don't come down to holding down attack the whole time. Between their i-frames, smokescreen, charging assassinate during downtime, avoidability, mobility, etc. a Shadower's effective DPM is much closer to their theoretical DPM as opposed to say a BM who has high paper DPS but in reality is held back by lack of burst damage (i.e. Snipe+Strafe, 1-tap for 6 hits as NL, etc) and vulnerability to knockback/stuns. This isn't me trying to make a judgement on Shadower's balance, but just to say paper DPS isn't a very good metric when it comes to choosing a class whereas playstyle is a very compelling reason.

    Frankly the very discussion we're having where DK and Hero might invalidate each other just with some number tweaks is indicative of poor design because the fundamental argument is that they're so similar. On the other hand, few would argue that Paladin can be conflated with DK/Hero because Pally has such an obvious role - someone picking the class likely wouldn't be swayed by a slight DPS increase/decrease as long as Paladin remained the best single target damage warrior with a very cool ult. Similarly we don't see the same problem with Archers, because even though for 99.99% of players MM will be better in almost every phase of the game, there's no shortage of BMs because it's a different playstyle.
     
  8. JKNS
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    JKNS Selkie Jr.

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    DrK also just stands on bosses in CWK, and you can also similarly duck or Rush into Zak to avoid stuns. It’s one extra button to pot up above damage thresholds to avoid dying. The healing thing is only an issue during Zak and HT, where you have actual active Bishops: in reality, you are way more in control of your Zerk and Bishop healing is only relevant in 1.5 places (you are so far removed from your Bishop in HT main body unless you are acting as sed that them Healing won’t affect you, and even then it’s usually one or two buttons to re-Zerk).

    Playstyle can be different in terms of linearity and maintenance, but in terms of role, Hero and DrK do the same thing (3-target cleave), and role is the thing that creates redundancy. Zerking doesn’t make DrK that different from Hero: you just do more work for less damage by playing similarly with a couple extra button presses. In terms of bossing, you position in basically the same spots and spam Crusher with an occasional manual pot weaved in, very much like spamming Brandish with less manual potting.

    The Archer thing is that they’re similar performance output at almost all areas of the game, more or less. MM does more damage early with Snipe DPM, BM overtakes with gears later on. BM is a better CWK class, MM is better in PB, but the rest is similar. Neither Hero nor DrK have that standout content (CWK can only carry you so far).
     
  9. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    I never talked about dummy dpm, shad literally sucks, they're ways worse on single target, and if they decide cleave their damage don't increase 2x, or 3x like dk and hero, oh but they have iframes and avoid, well, warriors have stance, till high levels stance provides more stability than avoid, GL to deal more damage than simmilar geared archer, while providing less support, but anw lets forget about shad.
    I don't want to be rude but for what you said it is a skill player issue, i never played drk before so anything you can fix me, but keeping zerk at scar and zak shouldn't be hard, i have dk friends who do the entire run inside the body, and you CAN keep zerking, its not a hypothetical situation like corsairs.
    And cmon, lets forget about warriors with 15k hp, the game can't be balanced thinking on it, every warrior should have atleast 25k hp, its so ridiculously easy to wash, and they're not like archers, archers have a good gap between theyselfs on niches, bm being better at HT, CWK, MM at PB and early game, they're not almost the same like dk/hero.
    I can only agree with DK having a buff to do more damage than heroes if heroes get a buff on single target damage, just play the class you LIKE, if you choose the hard class to play accept it, you need to play better to do the same, this come from a corsair players of royals, bruh, NL supremacy is extreme on it, but with attention i could white then and its very fun, the game rewards your efforts, lets not talk about me NEVER being able to white a simmilar geared one at horntail, it is a NL niche but in other bosses i could easily white and not rely on SE, honestly its just my personal vision, i don't think hard classes deserve to be better when played correctly, they're different classes with nuances and thats why i believe in raw damage buff on dk, while making heroes more well-rounded buffing they single target to be better than dk in any point, any change who can make then different classes, rn its almost the same, who in the hell is going to create a hero when dk are easier to wash, easier to level at any moment in the game, provides HB and deal more damage while played well? We need balance the game thinking in the players who mastered their respectives jobs.
     

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