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Buff marksmen

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Selquin, Feb 2, 2020.

How bad MMs?

  1. MMs are balanced and do not need a buff

    25 vote(s)
    20.5%
  2. MMs are under powered, but not to the degree where significant buffs are necessary

    35 vote(s)
    28.7%
  3. MMs are bad enough to the point where significant buffs are necessary

    62 vote(s)
    50.8%
  1. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Buff BM
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Estrahl
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    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

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    5:02 PM
    Kiyomasa, kage, miko, zoku, etc
    Dragon Knight, Cleric, Bowman, Bandit
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    And let marksmen attack and heal on that jaguar mount

    Also let that jaguar have some skills of its own

    And then also give marksmen a unique story based on an underground resistance force
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. Esmo
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    Esmo Pac Pinky

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    I think we should nerf night lords and buff anything else but thieves
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    just curious, what MM changes has been done from since then and now?
     
  5. JKNS
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    JKNS Selkie Jr.

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    Hero, Dark Knight, F/P Arch Mage, I/L Arch Mage, Bishop, Night Lord
    The big change is 5-line Strafe as opposed to the typical 4-line, but MM has been further boosted by Blind working on Bosses and Bucc’s rise in viability as a class thanks to having SI more readily available as well. Not sure how much BM losing Alt-Tab Hurricane factors in (more of a loss of QoL), but there’s technically that too.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  6. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    with the new 5 line strafe and SI available, iirc, BM will overtake MM in damage after level 190 or so right? or am i wrong in this. not counting PB's half damage reduction
     
  7. OP
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    Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    With decent gear and lvl 200, SI marksmen will still outperform BM in terms of dummy dpm under non-apple conditions(not counting PB damage reduction). For BM to match SI-MM on cider/conc, an enormous amount of funding is necessary (we are talking like 60b+).
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
  8. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    icic. so on paper, with perf gear and everything, BM will still outdamage MM. But the cost is unrealistic hence making MM alot more practical and BM.
    Thanks for the info :D
     
  9. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The annoying thing about the changes is that the original concept behind BM/MM was fairly simple - Marksmen were supposed to spike early and grow linearly until Bowmasters could outpace their growth on a curve towards the end levels. However, we're starting to see that the gap between Marksmen and Bowmasters isn't all that significant. The original concept (early game vs. end game) got blown up with the release of Pinkbean, where Marksmen outshine Bowmasters due to a coding technicality with Snipe. For other content preceding Pinkbean, we're also seeing that Marksmen tend to outperform Bowmasters due to effective DPM, where outside of dummy dpm-like targets, Marksmen should have an overall advantage due to Blind and the mechanics behind their attacks (Snipe/Strafe proccing full damage at activation point vs. Hurricane requiring no interruptions). Quick note - Hurricane start-up animation is not factored at all during dummy dpm tests while Strafe/Snipe start up is.

    As of now, MM advantages over BMs are:
    • Additional party utility in Blind
    • Damage reduction evasion in Snipe
    • Piercing Arrow for cleave
    While their disadvantages are:
    • They rely on SI

    Before, we could add that xbows were generally cheaper than bows, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore and both are somewhat comparable in cost.

    I'm glad Marksmen got the nice revamp as it was much needed to revive a dead class. However, over the past three years, the only change BMs got was Concentrate becoming undispellable, which was a freebie tossed in with the Enrage buff. In return, we lost alt tab hurricane which was a core mechanic that drove people to choose bowmasters, and the reductive change was met with nothing in return, while Nightlords got a buff to Shadow Stars with their Shadow Star bug fix. :V

    Bowmasters are fun to play, but for any new player, I'd always advise them to go the Marksman route instead.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Camazotz
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    Camazotz Pink Teddy

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    Bow 30% scrolls are still 3-4x the cost of crossbow 30%s though.

    However, max attack clean Nescheres are a lot more expensive than max attack clean Nisrocks, but I still don't think that evens out.
     
  11. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    I haven't played this game for nearly a year but MM still has to stand on the right side of PB, right? Being on the right side of PB sucks because you keep getting pushed, so I'm pretty sure a BM on the left side can still outdamage MM even with Snipe not being affected by physical resistance.
     
  12. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    This has changed and MM now stand on the left side. MMs out damage BM on bean body by a large margin in PB's current state.
     
  13. faithie
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    faithie King Slime

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    To add to akash's reply, MMs dont have to stand on right of PB because the damage to KB PB has increased to above snipe damage, hence sniping from left wont make PB face left.

    Furthermore, the lesser the number of apples that the PB squad decides to use during main body, the stronger MMs become (just in case: because snipe deals a flat damage). It's no surprise that squads using 2 apples in main body would tend to lead to the MM whiting PB.

    In the above case, an average BM player with average gear on ciders would be dealing roughly 125-150% of just what MMs would deal with snipe alone at ~2m dpm. Snipe should already cover ~1.6m dpm (assuming 40 seconds of dpm uptime and 20 seconds of DR uptime, and assuming perfect snipe timing).

    So to reply to your post, no way a BM is better than a MM in PB main body from a theoretical standpoint
     
  14. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    I'm not so sure the part about dummy dpm is true. Isn't your dummy dpm over a mil higher than mine? In any case, I also lowered my range to slightly higher than that of a not as well endowed BM friend by equipping a clean crossbow and their dummy dpm was still higher than mine.

    As for realistic bossing scenarios, I would postulate that in most bosses outside of PB, especially the dummy-esque bosses (e.g. nameless, dunas, nib, krex, scar, pirate, mage) BM would have the upper hand (and also in HT, but for more nuanced reasons). That being said, I don't think there's enough data at the moment to say anything confidently (LF> more archers to post in the DPM compilation thread).

    And since blind utility was touched on in prior comments, I'm just gonna copy and paste what I said on discord regarding it since it's something I've discussed several times already:

    "Blind is extremely overstated for any class that already has enough avoid to dodge attacks. I did several tests before out of curiosity.

    For a char that doesn't have enough avoid to dodge stuff, e.g. below 250 in HT and krex and below 270 for b1 of verga and nib, blind actually does seem to operate like a 10% shifter so it's decently helpful for mages (would say warriors but with their stance it only really saves a tiny bit of pots for them in most situations). However, for all other classes the benefit is very marginal to the point that I don't even bother using it in some bossing situations. I did several 10 minute tests with my MM, bucc, and DK/bish across verga/nib/krex and on regular mobs with and without blind and then tortured myself reviewing the footage.

    My MM, which had about 450 avoid, dodged about 38.4% of all attacks in the first 10 min test in verga without blind and 33.6% of all attacks with blind, funnily enough. In a second test at nib, it dodged 37.9% of attacks without blind and 39.9% of attacks with blind. My bucc, which had 302 avoid, dodged 24.2% of all attacks in krex without blind and 21.2% of attacks with blind. My DK dodged absolutely nothing in verga without blind but with blind it dodged 9.1% of all attacks. In krex, it managed to dodge just 1.9% of attacks without blind but with blind that shot up to 11.8%.

    To further verify these findings, given that there is a large amount of variance with just a 10% accuracy decrease, I also tested it on a mob with 270 acc (the maverick that you kill to summon nib), whereby blind operates at 30% instead of 10%. My MM avoided 39.1% of attacks without blind and 48.4% of attacks with blind. My bish avoided no attacks without blind and 34.5% of attacks with blind.

    So how useful is blind really for non-warrior/mage classes? Let's extrapolate from the findings above and say that my archer's natural avoid rate at most bosses is roughly 38% and with 10% blind it goes up to 41%. If we say that a boss attacks once every 3 seconds, then the boss attacks 200 times over a 10 minute period. With 38% avoid rate, 76 of those attacks will be avoided. With a 41% avoid rate, 82 of those attacks will be avoided. In other words, my archer would only avoid 6 more attacks over a 10 minute period. That's one less hit every ~1.5 minutes. Meanwhile the cast time of blind itself is long enough to eat up two strafes. That's why I stopped using blind in solo situations or when I'm in a small party with only range. I only really use it for the bish for their QoL in HT, although the effect of blind there is arguably diminished as it'll generally only be on 1-2 parts at most. Blind is at its best during statue phase of PB where its benefit is compounded with a large expedition size, but outside of that the utility of blind seems largely moot."
     
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  15. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I think this part is pretty important to emphasize - the utility is there, implemented as a skill, but the impact/effectiveness might not - which I think is a numbers/balance issue and is something that should be rebalanced/tweaked. What's the point of implementing/buffing a skill that does effectively nothing? This is something staff should have play tested before releasing, no?

    In theory (and assuming things are working as intended), blind should have a non-zero effect of increasing effective DPM all around, and cast time inefficiencies can be mitigated during downtime (casting while head is ducking, during DR, etc.). It's pretty meme to NOT use a skill that's supposed to support you simply because the cast time is not worth the impact it has for its full duration. :V (Also, why aren't more skills designed with lagless buffing like shadow stars?)

    Maybe this just points to boss accuracy and the overall effectiveness of avoid as some things that need looking into? A 30% decrease of boss accuracy shouldn't be something negligible, especially if it's being scaled up across a full party.
     
  16. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    It's a 10% accuracy drop on bosses apparently which boosted up to like 15% would make using the skill much more tempting to use.

    Like you said though there are times where you can use it with none or little dps lost so maybe that's where it belongs.
     
  17. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    LF> Lib updates on skill descriptions

    I think my point still stands - if skills are not worth using because its effects are found to not even be worth the cast time itself, then that is a balance/numbers issue that should be looked into. Stuff like this really should be playtested in a test server and tweaked accordingly before being released instead of relying on players to spend hours staring at recordings of themselves. Not saying that's not already being done, but I question why anything with no effect would get implemented and then dressed up as a revamp/buff?

    20% Blind on Boss, then buff BMs please :V
     
  18. OP
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    Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    This is true, but there is a gear/level differential between us, and I have barely crossed the threshold where BM = MM in theory. When compared with Toon for example, we will get around the same dpm.


    This is probably due to the fact that MM and BM range scale differently, MM crossbow has a higher multiplier so by matching your range with your friend you are in reality less geared than him.
     
  19. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    If a comparison to Toon is more apt, does that mean you have a perf timeless bow and stompers now?

    The higher multiplier for crossbow means that a MM with equivalent gears to a BM (with the crossbow having 3 more att than the bow) will have a range greater than the BM by about 500 after taking into account the fact that concentrate effectively gives BMs another 4 att. My range was about 150 higher than his when I lowered mine so it was indeed a bit of an underestimate for me. It should be noted though that it was at the gear level where I had dropped about 40 att that our DPMs were already similar to each other, i.e. it would seem that there is a lot of room for BM dummy dpm to outpace MM dummy dpm given that MMs don't scale nearly as well with att given the static nature of snipe.

    I would be curious though to hear what your dummy dpm is after lowering your range to ~9800.
     

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