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Buff non-fire Charges Maybe?

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Pixel, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. Pixel
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    Pixel Mixed Golem

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    I love the buffs you made to Paladins but i dont know i feel like the changes to the element charges definitely made Fire Charge feel like the best damage option compared to the others

    I understand Ice is a powerful element in terms of utility and should be weaker than the others but being 50% points weaker than fire just makes it horrible if someone wants to use Ice agaisnt element-weak mobs making it just
    ''Ice is just to freeze''

    I really love the idea of Paladins being this cool elements warrior and to use every one of the 4 elements available when you need them but when you go from 105 and 125 to 125 and 175, the difference becomes way more notorious
    And heck even Holy Charge which is a 4th job skill is 140%

    I think Neckson thought that most of the late game enemies would be all evil and therefore weak to Holy but the reality is, Holy is as situational as Fire or Lightning could be , but weaker than these two makes Holy Charge be absolutely worthless

    My suggestion would be to leave Fire Charge as it is, it's definitely the damage buffs WKs and Pallys need. BUT we need to make every element also viable, not stronger than fire

    Buff Ice from 125% to 150%
    Buff Lightning from 150% to 155 or 160%
    Buff Holy from 140% to 170 or 175% to be equal as Fire

    I am aware that Paladins excel at certain bosses that are weak to fire but at the same time there's also talk that anything that Pally isnt strong agaisnt is probably one of the worst bossers for that.

    We dont need to make them the best at everything but buffing other elements would make them have better tools
    It won't make Pallys stronger than they are currently, i dont think many bosses are weak to holy but it'll make grinding options and the class a lot more fun and more of a ''pick your element'' kind of choice
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  2. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Ice weak monster ice charge = 1.25*1.5 = 1.875
    Ice weak monster (but fire neutral) fire charge = 1.75*1 = 1.75

    What's the issue? All the charges do have a use. If the enemy is weak to a specific charge, its better to use that charge than fire charge.

    What paladins actually need is the lag on heavens hammer to be reduced (not cooldown). When a paladin uses heavens hammer they are stuck in place for literally 5 seconds. They should be able to use hammer and then go back to using whatever other skill they were quickly.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. OP
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    Pixel Mixed Golem

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    The issue is that's like a 0.1 damage difference on something that should be it's strong point

    If ice weak monster ice charge is 1.875
    imagine fire weak monster fire charge is 2.625

    0.1 damage literally invites you ''lol dont care about using ice charge, you can max fire first and get the same result and also be strong agaisnt fire weak''

    That's where the difference lies
    Why would a Paladin use any other element but fire other than utility at this current moment?

    With the buff, someone training at ice weak would be 2.25 , it wouldnt be stronger than fire, but it's definitely comparable

    Do you wanna do 2.25 times damage on ice weak mobs and also freeze them
    or want to be super strong with 2.625 in fire weak mobs but also 1.75 strong on everything

    Because if you compare 1.85 situational vs 1.75 on everything everyone is gonna pick the latter

    Now it becomes more of a personal preference rather than just crystal clear which option is better
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I remember seeing some maths for damages of warriors at one point and I believe Paladins were already balanced well for single target on fire neutral targets, they tend to put out the same damage as other melee counterparts. Against fire weak mobs they can outperform most Night Lords(Scarlion, Bigfoot, Pianus get shredded), and lightning weak mobs they are still consistently the best single target damage of the melee classes. (Vergamot, Nameless, Nibergen, Samurai, Crow are generally a lot quicker than any of their counterparts) Too many of the ice weak mobs are also weak to lightning so their just isn't that much use for it anyways, at least from an end game bossing perspective.

    Personally I still believe that Paladins and Shadowers are the two best classes in the game, with good health pools, great damage, and not relying on others for their damage. I don't believe they need any more buffs as they're already extremely strong in almost every circumstance.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Buffing ice is pretty pointless anyways because Targa and Hsalf are the only things you will use it on right now. I think there's also BGB and (eventually) Hunin?
     
  6. asdfjkliang
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    asdfjkliang Selkie Jr.

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    No. They already got like 3 buffs already
     
  7. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I see what you mean.

    However, its not really that black and white since on a lot of monsters that are ice weak, are fire resistant. So if you didn't have an ice charge your damage would be realllllllly low on these monsters.

    For example, targa is ice weak, but fire resistant - scarlion is the reverse. Not having ice charge would really hurt a paladin here. So it's not really too viable to simply forsake ice charge.
     
  8. SaviorSword
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    SaviorSword Dark Stone Golem

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    I also agree with the notion that some of the charges could use some tweaks, as the current state of the charges often does not encourage the use of the other charges with a heavy skew in favor of Fire charge in general. Now this WILL mean that tweaks will be a super delicate balancin' act as we really don't want to further buff Paladins as they are already in a great spot as is, but allow the other charges to have an even amount of use.
    And here are my thoughts for each non-Fire charges:

    Ice-
    It's fine as is, believe it or not. While Ice's very low damage does make it struggle to compete with Fire even with an element advantage on the monster and Fire is neutral on the same target, akahsky did make a good point about that most Ice-weak monsters are generally Fire-resistant as well. So in practice Fire and Ice have their place to cover each other's weak points. Also the utilities of the freeze effect is an utility that not most classes can boast about, so there's that to consider.

    Thunder-
    Thunder has the unfortunate distinction to have the least amount of effective targets to use itself on. While Thunder Charge on Thunder-weak monsters outperforms Fire Charge on Fire-neutral monsters by a wide margin, a problem that Ice Charge had against Ice-weak monsters versus Fire-neutral monsters, it still just doesn't have the opportunity to to shine as often because of it's rather smaller pool of effective targets nor does it have a practical flip-flop weakness relationship that Fire and Ice has. Thunder's problem also further compounds if the monster is element neutral in general, as Thunder's base damage is just lower and there's no reason to use it over Fire.
    My suggestion is to give Thunder an utility that can separate itself from other charges. Like allow Thunder to slow down monsters to make it a middle ground between Fire and Ice, another idea is that it can interrupt any monster's attack/skill to give it it's own niche, or a crazy idea could be that while under Thunder Charge the player will always hit +2 more monsters than their current attack would allow (Sort of like how Arans could hit 3 monsters with their normal attacks). The creative number possibilities is very wide here on this theoretical design route! Changes like the above example will still keep the power level hierarchy the same, but allow Thunder to have more incentive to see more use for it's own merits and not just for element weakness.
    On a small tangent, could the small Thunder-weak pool or the lack of an utility be the reason why the vanilla version made it stackable in later versions?
    OnionF6

    Holy-
    The current state of Holy baffles me. It's weaker than Fire for some bizarre reason and it's a higher tier Skill. That's just a bad design choice in my eyes as higher tier Skills should never be weaker than lower tier ones. While no where does anywhere says that the above sentence must be true, but consider if Triple Throw was weaker than Lucky Seven or Frostprey was weaker than Golden Eagle? Same could be said with Skill relations like Double Stab with Savage Blow, or Ice Strike with Blizzard, and so on. Would that be a design choice that would sit well in general?
    Anyways, the other aspects of Holy Charge is generally not a problem like it's pool of Holy-weak targets is not as sparse like Thunder. Now a straight-up buff to Holy charge is still just a straight up buff to Paladins and that's what I want to avoid, and yet I really want to address the Skill tier discrepancy it currently has. Any suggestions are welcome here.

    TL;DR-
    Ice is fine, Thunder can use some more utility, and Holy needs to be stronger but not really? MapleF6
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. JukkaShang
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    JukkaShang King Slime

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    Yeah, I think thats great idea. And everyone above also has very fair point. I think we should consider the possibilty for the change in client code or something like that, we need to be pratical, so the easiest way for admins is to change the damage %, because the old version has lots of problems they cant just focus on palas.

    The key point is:
    1. keep it easy to change
    2. buff other elements too much seems not very possible because pala is right at a good position(maybe just slightly a little weak)
    3. 4th holy should stronger than fire's 175% but with 25% rage it'll be 200% which is too much
    4. so fire has to be nerfed and there's no reason it is stronger than thunder
    5. Ice should always be weaker cause when a mob weak on ice&thunder, ice will always be better with crowd control
    6. with same damage, when a mob is weak on fire&thunder, no more 'fire is the best'
    7. with neutral mobs, holy is strongest which is logical because it's 4th skill

    So I imagined the solution like this haha:
    1. Ice 135% Thunder&Fire 155% Holy 175%, keep 20% rage so you can cacculate the damage is average, each is balanced (or 140%/160%/180%)
    2. Ice 125% Thunder&Fire 150% Holy 175%, just switch damage of fire and holy, im a pala and I know this is hard to say so I prefer solution 1 haha
     
  10. JukkaShang
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    JukkaShang King Slime

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    After a 2nd thought and to make my idea clearer with more details , I re-edit the rely above:

    All the ideas above are great and have very fair points. I still think we should consider the possibilty for the change in game code design or something like that, besides the old version has lots of problems, they can't just focus on palas. Therefore we need to be pratical and the easiest way to change is the damage %.

    My key point is:
    1. Keep it easy to change.
    2. Buff other elements too much seems not very possible because pala is right at a good position(maybe just slightly a little weak).
    3. For neutral mobs, Holy is the strongest which is logical because it's 4th skill. But with 25% rage (125%/150%175%), it'll be 200%, which is too much, so fire has to be nerfed to the same level of Thunder.
    4. For mobs weak on Fire&Thunder, 'Fire is the best' will ruin the balance, that's why Fire has to be nerfed to the same level of Thunder.
    5. For mobs weak on Ice&Thunder, Ice should always be weaker cause when they have same damage, Ice will always be better with crowd control.
    6. For damage increasing %, 15%-20% rage can perfectly balance all elements' damage, especially the gap between Ice and Holy after the cacculation.

    So I imagined the solution like this:
    Ice 135% Thunder&Fire 155% Holy 175% or 140%/160%/180%.
    Reasons are as followed:

    1. Buff Ice 10%-15%, because now it's too weak and the gap with other elements is huge, besides there're not many mobs&bosses weak on Ice so it won't be too much.
    2. Buff Thunder 5%-10%, because it needs to be the same with Fire, meanwhile nerf Fire 25% is too much, so balanced with this % would be a nice choice.
    3. Buff Holy 35%-40%, because it's super weak now, no pala with add Holy until HH&Balst&ACB&Stance is maxed while the elements themselves should be the soul of a pala! And it just sort of switching the position with fire so the highest damage on neutral mobs is still around 175% compared to Fire's damage in today's version.
     
  11. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Average damage given perfect Dragon Claymore/Sky Skis and perfect gear with bear. SI and SE used. Total attack: 200 on the DK and 211 on Hero/Paladin. Total str: 1200. Total dex: 60

    DK average DPM: (1200(str) x 5(str multiplier) x .86(average mastery) + 60(dex)) x 200(attack)/100(attack scaling) x 1.91(Crusher damage with SE) x 3(Crusher lines) x 2(Berserk) x 74(attacks per minute)
    DPM = 8.853mil

    Hero average DPM: (1200(str) x 4.6(str multiplier) x .77(average mastery) + 60(dex)) x 211(attack)/100(attack scaling) x 2.81(Brandish damage with SE) x 2(Brandish lines) x 1.9(Combo) x 95.2(attacks per minute)
    DPM = 9.245mil

    Paladin average DPM(Fire neutral): (1200(str) x 4.6(str multiplier) x .77(average mastery) + 60(dex)) x 211(attack)/100(attack scaling) x 6.21(Blast damage with SE) x 1(Blast lines) x 1.75(Fire Charge) x 95.2(attacks per minute)
    DPM = 9.409mil

    Fire weak = 14.114mil
    Thunder weak = 12.098mil
    Ice weak = 10.081mil

    Paladins don't need to be buffed, they're already stronger than the other warriors by a significant margin. These numbers also give them a couple advantages, like how without SE the gap would be even wider as DKs gain the most from it followed by Heroes. Paladins also lose less damage to defense overall as their single line only has damage removed once, while Heroes lose twice as much and Dark Knights lose three times as much to defense.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Motto
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    Using a Claymore or ST on a Paladin : big no
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. JukkaShang
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    JukkaShang King Slime

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    I see what you mean, before these formulas I never compared such detailed with DK and Hero, maybe you're right. But I'm not good at this, usually pala will use rk or nt sword + 10 slots shield or ST, so in that case how would the damage change?
    My main reason to bring up the % change is the gap from 125% to 175% is huge, the range should keep in 15%-20% where all elements are balanced. With a nerf on Fire from 175% to 155% (-20%) and a buff on Ice from 125% to 135% and buff on Thunder 5% (+15%), this is not really a strong buff. It seems Holy gets buffed but Fire is more widely used because more mobs are weak on fire, so the nerf would cause much more effect than the buff. Also considered the max damage is still 175% (not really a buff to Holy because it's where it should be).

    My another point is that Holy is too weak, even in your cacculation that element is also being ignored. So if your formula is accurate, my opinion above just looks less convincible, then switch Fire to 150% and Holy to 175% would also be a nice solution.
     
  14. JukkaShang
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    JukkaShang King Slime

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    Hi, I just asked my friend for help, his result said Pala's attack per min is much lower than Hero, thus it's the worst damage maker among warriors...and as worse as marksman (sorry marksman players)
    Idk who's right, but just from what I heard, ppl talks about NL and DK in HTPQ, sometimes Hero and other class, but never pala, only HH mules. And many of my friends compare damage with/without SE and SI between DK and Hero, no one mentions pala too. Therefore I tend to trust his result haha. But I wish there're more math talents can help me out here : )
     
  15. Motto
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    Hardly possible, is he using a crushed skull? Because blast is 11/10 with it
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Your friend is wrong. Alyosha is right. Paladins have higher single target dpm than all the other warriors. If we are talking about cleave damagae (more than 1 target), then yes the other warriors output more damage.
     
  17. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    No offense to your friend, but that is a ridiculously misinformed opinion. With or without SE/SI, paladin has the highest single target dpm out of the 3 warriors. It has both been demonstrated theoretically and in practice that this is the case.
     
  18. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    It's hard to compare 1 handed to 2 handed because it's hard to say what is an equivalent level of scrolling. At least with a perfect weapon it's comparable across classes but adding in a perfect shield makes things twice as expensive and have a higher barrier of entry to achieve what is possible. The weapons you mentioned don't benefit from SI(Except for the ST at half benefit) so they will tend to have a smaller floor.

    I haven't done the numbers recently but as far as I remember any 2h sword with SI will outdo their 1h counterpart, as they both will reach the speed cap. The higher base attack and the higher str multiplier for 2h swords more than makes up for the attack on the shield, at least if SI is no issue.

    Crushed Skull is probably the most viable BW, with its large attack and a speed that benefits the most from SI.

    Holy Charge is useless in the current state. Off the top of my head only Samurai is weak to Holy. So changing Holy damage to be the best wouldn't really benefit anything and would just be the new neutral choice over fire neutral. And nerfing Fire while buffing Lightning would just take away a bit of damage on lower level bosses, while buffing Paladins in the end-game at Neo-Tokyo as most of those bosses are Lightning weak. They're already very strong there so a Lightning buff would only tip the game more in favor of Paladins, especially if they can keep the same neutral damage with Holy.
     
  19. SaviorSword
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    I suppose we can all at least agree that Paladins don't need buffs, but the charges could use some tweaks in general, right?

    If so, the tricky part is to not accidentally hard buff/nerf with the tweaks and that could take awhile. However I'm up for the very very long debates for'em.


    Now I want to pose another question: How important is it to uphold the status quo of the charges' power hierarchy of GMS (Holy>Fire>Thunder>Ice 1.5, 1.4, 1.25, 1.1 respectively)?
     
  20. OP
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    I love how y'all are like
    ''Why buff pally, with fire charges he's stronger''
    Dont you read the title
    I never suggested to raise his damage, but to make every charge but FIRE, awful in comparison.
    You can nerf fire to 160 for all i care if that means other charges can be a little more on par
     

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