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Discussion of art selling exemption in T&C

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by PumpkinJuice, Feb 15, 2023.

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  1. Chris
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    Chris Zakum Retired Staff

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    What is considered abuse out of curiosity?
     
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  2. OP
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    PumpkinJuice
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    PumpkinJuice Orange Mushroom

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    Exactly. People will do what they like to do if they are passionate about it. Even if there are no monetary rewards for drawing, people who like to draw will still draw regardless.

    Again yes, dedication and passion is what drives him, not mesos. If artists truly loves their craft, without rewards they should still draw just because they love it.

    True, it is their server, and they can choose how they run things. In fact this is not just for Legends or Royals, even original servers and many other game run by their rules. However, there is also customer feedbacks, feedbacks suggesting if this is the way to go, which is what this thread is for.

    This is more of a subjective opinion. I can also say what about those people who prefer to live in the present?

    Also if subjective opinion is taken, I will say portraits of your character will not make you remember fond memories. Even if this server closes down, there are too many other servers which you can remake the character, and have some flashback of the times.What truly makes you remember them are videos, screenshots of your adventures. But all these are just my own opinion.

    We should focus on the main points rather than why you feel art is more valuable and thus should be allowed to RWT.

    I don't get your point. What does getting bored/burnt out has anything to do with selling art? Are you saying because they sell art that they get bored of the game?

    Also, what defines expensive for you? To me, 100m per piece is very expensive and game-changing. It will not bring me to end game for sure, but the road to that significantly shortens. And this is only for players aiming end game content. What about those casuals?

    Isn't this an unfair advantage for people who are new to the game then? New players selling arts for significant amount of meso will progress so much faster than new players who don't. Quitting the game should not be connect to art selling, there are way too much factors as to why a player quits, be it real life commitments, nostalgia ending etc.

    If you state drawing takes time, then what about those players who pays artists to draw out the art for them, and then proceed to sell it as their own art? This indirect route is untraceable. End game is also not the only gameplay as many have stated.
     
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  3. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    My point wasn't meant to be a counterpoint to your argument, but everything on forums is generally subjective. I personally don't care much if others gain an in-game advantage for utilizing their real world skillsets, and I'd be pretty annoyed if I lost access to purchasing art because someone can't live with the fact others have the ability to progress faster than they do.

    RWT generally tends to be frowned upon from the side of purchasers as it feels like they're cheating. However, you're positing only from one perspective. From what I've seen, most players don't really care about RWT on the other end of the deal -- when someone quits and decides to sell their goods (they get banned and the items get deleted anyways). In this case, I think people who are established in the game should be encouraged to inject their assets into the new player base -- whether it be through things like hosting random community events, guild events, or even through the purchase of art. I find these types of interactions to offer a much more welcoming environment that one that tries to discredit others' way of playing.

    For those who are salty and calling it unfair maybe take some art classes? Youtube is free. :^)

    And while we're on the subject -- wouldn't it make more objective sense for staff to favor the subjective opinions of older players of the server rather than considering the takes of new players and those who hide behind random forum accounts?
     
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  4. ooShawnyoo
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    ooShawnyoo Dark Stone Golem

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    Art discussion aside, while not all new players' opinions should be 100% taken into consideration as they often haven't built up enough experience with the server to provide a complete and thorough input, new players' suggestions and thoughts should never be automatically tossed aside in favor of older players.

    Older players might be right sometimes, but this server needs more players. It's important to understand and pinpoint what encourages (or discourages) people to come play MapleLegends, and also keep playing.
     
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  5. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I never said staff should ignore new players entirely, but on matters that have an effect on both new players and old alike, I'd think it makes more sense to cater to the older, more experienced opinions. Staff has a limited bandwidth.

    Wouldn't the players who've played the longest have the best knowledge of what keeps players playing?
     
  6. ooShawnyoo
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    ooShawnyoo Dark Stone Golem

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    I agree with you that you never said to completely ignore new players, I don't think that is what you were saying.

    It's true that older players will usually have a better input as they have been playing for a while, but personally I don't think that means staff should "always" favor them as sometimes older players tend to give an opinion that benefits the current state of the server. They have been playing for a long time because they like how the server is now. But sometimes that also means new players don't really want to join due to the server's current state.

    All I'm saying is I believe it is important to give a fair value to new players' opinion and not side with older players too quickly. Sometimes it can lead to interesting ideas or lead to a good compromise/middle ground benefitting everyone.
     
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  7. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I assume you mean you would be annoyed if you lost the option to pay mesos for art, since you can always pay for art with real world currency.
     
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  8. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Yes, thanks for the clarification. I think that part of the enjoyment of paying for art via forums is giving back to other players for their time and skillsets, but it also has an added bonus of keeping a diverse community alive. Sure, I could go on Fiverr and have someone draw art for me and it'd make more sense time-wise, but it'd lose all sentimentality behind the purchase.
     
  9. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    ban everyone who has a more stable internet connection than me because it's an unfair advantage
     
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  10. HimeHam
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    HimeHam Pac Pinky

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    Hot take but I don't think people who can draw have an unfair advantage. Maybe they have an advantage but It definitely isn't unfair. Anyone can learn to draw.

    I don't understand how banning this makes a positive impact at all. Way I see it, if somebody is willing to pay for your drawing it must be worth it to the buyer or you're out of business. Buyer is happy because they made the decision and got some cool art. Seller is happy because somebody appreciated their art, plus the big Meso payday.
    The only ones left are the butthurt bystanders malding because they want to start an art store, but don't want to put in the time and effort to learn a skill. Like all it does is make non-artists jealous.


    RWT is problematic because it downplays the work a player puts into their character. Nobody wants to pour thousands of hours into farming White Scrolls for their perfect Timeless just to see their friend pay $2000 and get it instantly. Artists on the other hand spend hours and pour incredible effort into their work. If somebody is honestly willing to pay 500m Mesos for an art piece I say by all means let them. It's the responsibility of the buyer to get their money's worth, and 500m Mesos calls for a tremendously good art piece. I honestly think artists deserve more respect. Both for the time spent on their work, and the time spent refining their craft. Way to go artists!
    OnionPerfect
     
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  11. SinclairJ
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    SinclairJ Master Chronos

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    What about new or casual players..? "you can just learn how to draw" is ridiculous, just learn how to make money or study to become a doctor and rwt. The fact person1 has a ridiculous advantage over person 2 is a problem, like Kimmy said herself; "Personally, most of the people I see selling art for mesos are new to the game, and then also end up quitting anyway because they are casual and find out that mesos isn't everything"

    RWT is indeed problematic because it would suck for someone to just triumph or match whatever you worked for ingame with something they have irl, I'd hate to be a top tier player only to find out my fellow elites have been having a huge advantage over me.
    As a new player, isn't it incredibly frustrating that someone with nothing to their name in-game can just get a significant headstart over you and play how they want because of a real life skill they have?

    I even had a art store myself, easiest mesos I've ever made even better than fame mules. I still think its stupid.
    Its fun for sure, seeing people use your art for display pictures, mesos(aka time) being spent in appreciation, happy feedback, and of course getting to draw maple characters should be quite fun for someone attracted to a oldschool maple server. Doesn't exactly feel as a chore/work like some unrelated commissions might.

    I just think in particular for legends it does not fit because there are no alternatives to getting a headstart. What options are there?
    -Getting a headstart from a friend
    -Getting amazing RNG
    -Learning how to draw..?
    -Fame mules? I think fame mules are essentially the only comparable option thats actually fair

    Art is great fun, it brings joy, and I have respect for creative talent. Why do mesos have to be involved? There's other ways to show appreciation
    Might be my daddy mommy issues but the idea of missing out or not having access is just not fun.
     
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  12. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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  13. Serin
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    Serin Game Moderator Staff Member Game Moderator

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    Hi, as an artist, (old) player and staff, I can sympathize with all sides of the community depending on the PoV I choose to view from. All sides are valid and correct, and I understand where each concern comes from. There's no "who is right or wrong" so hopefully yall don't try to rip each others' heads off over this.

    I can't really comment or give a definite answer to the whole "Is art-selling in games considered RWT?" and if I could, this eternal debate of the online gaming-community would finally come to and end LMAO (oh my id be powerful).
    All I know is that the perspective of how art-selling is viewed within each specific gaming communities is exactly that, the community.

    Up until now, the older players/staff have seen art as a community-building/positive factor, and yes of course from time to time this discourse came up but nothing really too-severe or game breaking/changing happened to the point where artists were viewed as end-game-breakers or turned out to be actual RWTers. At most we have seen cases where yes, the artist(s) do end up quitting while having a long queue of clients left to draw for who already paid; which can be considered a scam. We (JUST) recently added a rule to target this specific problem, see here: https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...buying-selling-artwork-on-maplelegends.48819/ and hopefully the concerns regarding things of this factor will alleviate even just a bit.

    ----
    From my humble artist PoV, (non-staff related) I don't think artists would really care if there was a ban on selling art. If anything, having a reason to draw art and showing it to the community is good enough, and we can see a lot of artists already doing that. It's a bit diff when you think about it in the "if you like drawing then just draw for free" way cause at the same time the time and effort used to draw could be used elsewhere like actually grinding which we will probably do anyways. there's no real motivation to draw someone else unless they're friends or something but that really depends on the artist. i wouldnt personally go out of my way to draw people for free all the time just cause i like drawing.

    I also think having a set of rules for something that's bound to happen regardless monetarily is also better than not having them.
    For example, I stopped taking art commissions a long time ago and i draw my friends and players when im bored cause i love them or their designs (free), people always end up forcing me to take a huge chunk of meso as a gift or sending me / lending me gear cause they want me to have some sort of compensation for my time cause they appreciate the artwork (but ofc as staff i just reject tho LMAO) but in that sense, if i weren't a staff member then what guarantee as other player(s) would you have that other artists who post "free art" on the forums wouldn't be taking such meso/items in the background? If friends are drawing for friends for "free" then I'm going to assume/willing to bet a lot of artists would be able to receive much more for artwork than just MapleLegends meso that could eventually lead to actual RWT but 'without a trace'.

    Not sure if i'm making full sense here cause I'm trying not to seem biased as a staff, but just speaking from personal experience I feel like at least this way its a bit easier to keep things fair and monitored.


    Idk where i was going with this but yeah, i understand the frustrations and concerns some of you might have and i wish i could help come to one amazing result but *fortunately this is something that's possible to tweak, fix, add, experiment as we go (change is possible!) so hopefully you don't start murdering each other cause at the end we're just one big group of mushroom game nerds that want the community to prosper
     
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  14. HimeHam
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    HimeHam Pac Pinky

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    I suppose I don't find this frustrating because it's my own lack of skill that gives me a disadvantage. I feel like people have documented many good ways to get a start on this server, and maybe selling art is a good head start, and maybe it's easier than farming mesos, but there is a normal path and it's one most people take. If a few talented people are able to take another I honestly just think to myself "Good for them." It's important to remember that the game isn't competitive. Or at least it isn't to me.

    I think this is a really good point and definitely something to consider. Selling art is a very comfy fit in terms of maple business. It's just obvious that it'd work, and it's specifically stated in the rules as allowed. It's very difficult for other skills to give you an advantage ingame. Closest thing I can think of would be like someone who works in Economics merching. Anyways, I think that we need to be more creative in our meso making schemes and shops rather than banning what people have found to work.
     
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  15. OP
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    PumpkinJuice
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    PumpkinJuice Orange Mushroom

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    Lacking of an external skillset should not result in you having disadvantages. What about people who can code well? Should they be allowed to code hacking tools? If talented coders can code very good hacks that allow them to breeze through the game, should we go "Good for them"? It is their skills that allow them this advantage after all. Should not be a problem since it is not competitive right?

    Right now, art selling is not just a mere head start, it is a massive boost. With art selling, I can level 120 a completely new char with full decent int gears before the other newbie reaches level 50.

    Can't the scenario you mentioned happen at the same time? You now have to face two fronts instead of one. The scenario you just state can happen while art selling is also happening.

    I'm actually curious whether this is allowed or not.
     
  16. HimeHam
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    HimeHam Pac Pinky

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    Ok this response is meme as hell but there is some substance hidden in there I'd like to address. This block of text was entirely opinionated based on how I feel with my disadvantage. You might feel entirely different and it's here that you can share that opinion. My point that it isn't competitive wasn't to say that it's ok to be at a complete disadvantage, but rather that we should be celebrating each other's successes rather than downplaying each other's successes because "They didn't work as hard as I did."

    I think it's strange to call it a disadvantage when you have the same options as the majority of the playerbase. Perhaps you don't get the advantage of being able to sell your art, but until selling art becomes the norm I don't think it counts as a handicap in the grand scheme.

    The scale of the boost is based on the point of the game you're in when you start your art shop. 100m means a hell of a lot more to a new player than to a veteran. Thing is the farther into the game you get the smaller this advantage becomes. You can get to 120 with int gears as fast as you like but your mesos wont speed up the time it takes to gain votecash. After you reach level 120 the value of leech really starts to fall off. When you're actively playing the game you can earn yourself some meso, but you also get things that can never be gotten from passive income. Things like EXP from bossing, friends, Cards, experiences. When you spend all of your time drawing for your art shop you're missing out on a lot of stuff. The argument that it's an unfair advantage I think only has merit during the early game, and there's plenty not to miss out on during that period.

    I personally think if a newbie knows what to do they could reach level 120 with int gears at a similar pace to someone selling art. Finding customers and completing orders takes time, plus low level leech is barely any better than training. An I/L mage or a Bishop can reach 4th job quick and make a lot of mesos in the process. Remember that people who want to buy your art are finite and we have a small community. Far from this idea everybody is spinning of this GTA money glitch.

    As more people catch on and start their own art shops I could see the amount of buyers getting drawn out pretty thin. I think the market keeps itself in check and the scenario where new players feel forced to sell art to achieve their goals is just unrealistic.

    Now imagine if tomorrow we get an exception in the rules where people are allowed to sell their maple cheats for ingame currency. that would be pretty silly. :p
     
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  17. Lin
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    Lin Headless Horseman

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    Yea me too. Hypothetically speaking, what if I do video montage commissions like 1 bil for an epic 30 second or 1 min vid, I would just be editing all day to 'grind' the mesos and boom 'wow how did linny get that 21 attack glove?!?!?!'
     
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  18. HimeHam
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    HimeHam Pac Pinky

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    lemme know how it goes. I could use a new glove too! joymush
     
  19. OP
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    PumpkinJuice
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    PumpkinJuice Orange Mushroom

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    You do realise 100m is per piece of art right? It is not a one-time thing, and the more you sell, the more it adds up. At what stage is the point where every extra 100m is not a big advantage anymore?

    I also don't get what you mean by "things that can never be gotten from passive income", as if to say art drawing prevents you from actively playing the game. It doesn't take few days to draw an art. If a person is skilled enough, less than hour is enough to complete. So what ever you are saying that they are missing out just does not happen.

    Also, what is preventing an art shop from commisioning the work to other people? I can easily create a shop, find an artist, post some of the drawings, and wait for orders. When it comes, I just pay the artist money for him to draw whatever style he wants, and say that this artwork comes from me. This way I can play the game while not having to draw anything and earn passive incomes.
     
  20. Kargo
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    Kargo Skelegon

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    I didn't read every single reply, so maybe this point has already been made.

    I would say art should be seen as other forms of RWT (so banned). I could be wrong, but couldn't any art (even shitty art) be used as a loophole for RWT?

    Example:

    [​IMG]
     
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