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Discussion on balance changes to sweeping.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Dimez, Jun 17, 2021.

  1. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    7:06 PM
    -ovv
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    1 minute meso timer
     
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  2. kiln
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    kiln Pink Teddy

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    Jan 2, 2021
    10:06 PM
    Pepperspray
    Corsair
    Elite
    The explanation given was that staff noted significant price increases whenever a new farming meta was found. This time, I assume, they wanted to strike early to ensure the "ulu1 strat" doesn't spread too far.

     
  3. Blache
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    Blache Brown Teddy

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    Jan 12, 2020
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    11:06 PM
    Cleric
    Price increases in what? WS, CS and attack gear? Does that qualify as inflation? I've legitimately never taken an economics or business course in my life. It'd be nice if people with limited understanding, such as myself, could get the gist of the issue.
     
  4. jesscapades
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    jesscapades Pac Pinky

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    10:06 PM
    jesscapades
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    I think you've been cherry-picking which responses to reply to. People have been calling you out for your negativity and condescension and you're ignoring those messages. Even in your second follow-up post, when you admitted to being condescending, you tried to explain why it was justified by again shitting on everyone. I'm an asshole sometimes and when people tell me I'm being an asshole, I go back, re-read what I said and put myself in their shoes. Usually they're right and I acknowledge that and apologize. Same goes for when I say something that's wrong. I don't see you doing that at all--for example, with the shoe avoid thing, it's very clear from the preceding sentences that you're listing items to show that there's a significant amount of items that increased in price from inflation. This is invalid because shoe avoid prices went up immediately once Skar and Akash started the avoid meta, almost a year ago. Overall it's just a really negative, unproductive way to discuss things with people.

    I initially didn't post in this thread because I didn't have anything to say; I thought OP reflected all my opinions accurately and coherently. Then, once you devolved this thread into an unproductive economics dick-measuring contest, I still didn't want to reply because I didn't expect any respectful, thoughtful debate to come out of it. I haven't changed my mind on that.

    Edit: I said some harsh stuff, so I just wanted to say that I don't fault you for trying to engage, and I'm really happy to see more staff posts on these threads. I do however fault you for how you engaged.
     
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  5. Blache
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    Blache Brown Teddy

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    11:06 PM
    Cleric
    This is the way. Maybe not 1 minute, but there's definitely room for adjustment here. You've already given quite a few solutions that would effectively mitigate the "inflation" boogeyman, and I think this is best of the lot. You deserve cookies.
     
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  6. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    Crimsonwood Mountain: Cavern of Pain
    10:06 PM
    PAWGChamp
    Buccaneer
    What if WS/CS could only be purchaseable by NPC? Make it untradeable and un-Legendary-Spiritable (i.e. no service). This would make it a meso sink and have no inherent value except when applied to equips. Would the act of currency then shift to ws'ed/cs'ed items? I dunno. I took intro econ in my senior year of college as a bird course and spent about half a day on it in the entire spring semester.

    If this was implemented, it would be pretty funny to see all the WS hoarders wake up to find out their WSs are only useful for wiping their digital asses.
     
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  7. Mirrors
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    Mirrors Zakum Retired Staff

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    7:06 PM
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    As someone who flunked out of my economics major and switched to engineering, I have nothing useful to add to this conversation since I got a C- in Intro to Microeconomics and Macroeconomics. So this is all I can contribute:

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    7:06 PM
    whatdatoast
    Bowman
    My understanding of economics is that the less you know about economics, the more outspoken you are about what will happen to the market when something changes.

    Sincerely, someone who has taken some phd-level econ classes and still doesn't know shit.
     
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  9. porl
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    porl Mixed Golem

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    1:06 PM
    Bishop, Night Lord, Buccaneer
    Pasta
    When the amount of high level players grows in excess to the lower level players, bossing profit goes down and people eventually figure out that leeching with a Mage makes much more money & things like sweeping become widespread.

    Sweeping is just a symptom of more end game players competing over ever dwindling amounts of boss rewards pie. The amount of money made with mages and sweepers is very consistently high, and bossing slowly loses its money making appeal.

    I bet if bossing gave similar levels of rewards to cleaning your own map with a Mage then people would just boss with 1 character instead of farming meso.

    This entire topic is just people sneak asking for bossing rewards buffs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Fishy
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    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

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    but where are the bossing incentives :riot:
     
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  11. porl
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    porl Mixed Golem

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    1:06 PM
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    Boss coin exchange system when?
     
  12. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    bosses drop 2x the loot, but only the player who whites can loot OnionMuha
     
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  13. porl
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    porl Mixed Golem

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    The player that whites is the only one that can pick up the meso, so we're already halfway there
     
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  14. aussietinask
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    aussietinask Horny Mushroom Retired Staff

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    10:06 AM
    I shouldn’t have acted annoyed and condescending to begin with, that’s on me. Sorry.

    I do appreciate the discussion that came after I realized I shouldn’t do that and tried to answer everything with constructive discussion. I will keep doing that in the future.

    if I get something wrong, it’s good if someone lets me know. As I said, I do appreciate when people put in the effort to give thought out replies and pushback on my ideas as a whole.
     
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  15. Luu
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    Luu Pac Pinky

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    10:06 PM
    LuuBluum
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    In terms of this specific issue (multimage farming and using a sweeper to clean up the results), there's two things in play- the mage, using their ult; and the sweeper, picking up all the results. I feel like restricting meso pickups to strictly the killer is too broad in that there are far more cases of harmless picking up of someone else's mesos than there is specifically cases of farming as a (multi) mage and using a sweeper. In terms of the problem, I feel like it would be better to attack the former (the potentially multiple mages obliterating maps with their ults) than it would be to attack the latter (someone picking up another party member's spoils).

    Like, if the specific concern is that mages, strictly through usage of their ult on dense maps, can generate far more mesos than what would otherwise be healthy for the economy, why not... just tax the ult, literally? Reduce the meso drop rate from kills via mage ult, if we're specifically concerned about raw meso drops and not commodities. You can yield the same net result (mage farming far less profitable in terms of raw meso pickup, while preserving service revenue) without the drawback (impacting PQ looting and all the rest of it). You wouldn't even need to nerf ults in general in terms of damage and whatnot; you'd just be cutting their money-generating potential down to size. Which, assuming that that is the issue (mage ult farming being far too good at generating mesos versus everything else), would help that a bit. As would boosting alternative money-making methods. There are definitely ways to achieve the goals desired here without something as awkward as the current approach.
     
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  16. Vowels
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    Vowels Slimy

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    11:06 PM
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    This is an alternative but the issue isn't precisely mage and sweeper because a single client of these nets what's considered minimum wage. It only becomes an issue when multiclient enables players to do -what a single mage can- x2 x3 x4 x5 x6 etc. A nerf on on ult doesn't stop players from adding yet another mage to keep up with the lose, so I guess it's kinda more difficult than that and it becomes an issue where the multiclient mechanics need to be more challenging to balance out how many clients players can handle at the same time.

    EDIT: for example -ovv 1 minute meso timer solution is a more fair and interesting solution as it doesn't disrupt single client players that much or classes balance but puts a lot of pressure on multiclienters looting timers
     
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  17. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    iPippy
    Looks like its finally time to give mage ults the charge bar from Big Bang. Good luck manning multiple mages when each of them needs to hold the button :cool:
     
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  18. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    U can always add more mage, but you cant add more hands, fingers and feets. Im sure there's a limit on how many one can control
     
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  19. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    When I suggested this people just gave me funny.

    Glad that someone else wrote the idea in a way that doesnt look like a meme :D
     
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  20. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    11:06 AM
    NoraONE
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    Sweetdreams
    Thanks everyone for engaging in this discussion, it's definitely been quite an insightful read~

    I just want to say that we heard the complaints about the pet looting and party play issues. I think rather than seeing our changes as binary like a "applied" vs "not applied" you should see it sort of like OS updates with like version 1.01, 1.02, 1.03, etc etc. This means that we could always improve on these changes ^^ Since this has been a point raised a few times by multiple people, I think we will be looking into potential ways to improve the system so that it's not as annoying to the general populous. Of course, there's no guarantee we CAN do it, but I think we'll definitely be discussing it at the very least.

    Also, I think it's important for everyone to look at our changes with a different lens. I've seen some comments here (and elsewhere, not on the forums) about how "our economy is fine right now" or "there's no inflation right now". But when we push out changes, we're looking down the line and trying to prevent/slow things down from happening. That said, we are ALSO doing things so that we can pave the way for other positive changes we're exploring.

    In the original balance post, I say:
    • "Make non-mage meso making strategies feel better (relatively)."
    • "We have big hopes for this exchange, and this marks the beginning of MapleLegends taking innovative approaches to solving some fundamental concerns players had over the health of MapleLegend's economy."
    We definitely have things in the works that'll balance out changes like our sweeper changes to help mitigate the wealth disparity. Regulating raw meso generation is just step 1 leading into these types of changes. So I hope you guys are able to wait out and see the bigger picture as it develops ^^
     
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