Do NL's NEED to HP wash?

what if we add some of the following items?
-sunblock, +200 magic def equates to an indirect +100 hp gain? I was told it was 2:1.
-150+ hp face accessory, good bye 5-7 dex rat mouth
-30hp earrings, do 60% earrings for HP even exist?
-60+ hp for ravana helm

Thats an additional 340 hp, bringing the total to 6,492 or 6,576 hp. oof, still not enough for the ~7k wing buffed damage.

Maybe scroll a separate helm for HP? additional 50-70 hp depending on your luck. If one is truly crazy enough, they can scrolls some gloves for HP, additional ~100 hp, and the BFC for HP, additional ~40 hp.

If staff can introduce just a tad bit more hp items, then even an unwashed player can technically survive HT without HB.

Fairwell, DKs.

 

Slightly off topic, but it is worth noting that DKs themselves have gone through evolution on their own in response to the inevitable HP scaling of the population. While it is true that HB has become less important over the years, DKs have also gotten much better at optimizing their damage. The introduction of sushi in combination with the DK playerbase generally getting better at maintaining zerk has result in top tier DKs doing pretty much the same amount of damage as heros(which is their supposed pure dpm counterpart). If you are willing to bring a hero on a run, there is no reason you wouldn't a (competent) DK, since they do nearly the same amount of damage and DKs provide HB in addition. It would be different if DKs were a complete liability aside from their party buff (buccs *cough*), but that does not seem to be the case. In addition,practically speaking even teams where everyone has over 13k HP still prefers to have HB anyways, so I don't see DKs dying out anytime soon.

The same affect is also seem in bishops. Due to the advent of multiclienting mules as sed mules in combination with players just becoming better at HT and less reliant on the safetly net that bishop offers, there was a period of time where some of the elite HT runners made a push for bishopless runs. The reason for this is because at the time bishops did not really focus much on doing damage, so they didn't really speed up the run. However thanks to the work of some pioneer tryhard bishops, it was discovered that competent bishops could actually do damage comparable to attackers. As a result the bishopless HT movement more or less died out, but the bar for "HT ready bishop" went up(at least amongst the elite community).

 

^ This. When I started back in 2014 and stopped and eventually came back to my Bandit over Covid-19 Lockdown, I was under the impression that I, too, would never make it to HT level, let alone Pink Bean. Yet now i find myself on the cusp of hitting 150 (furthest i've ever gotten even in GMS) regretting not having washed as much as I could have. (Sidenote: yes Shadowers have Meso Guard so we don't need to wash TOO much, but being able to comfortably enjoy endgame content without HB is a great feeling)

Ask alot of my ingame friends and they'll tell you how disheartened i became at 119 realising that my character would always be at somewhat of an advantage if it didn't have enough HP to even be considered to be taken on bossing runs, let alone high DPM. Which is why I am personally bloodwashing 80 AP into HP to net ~1300 and am also considering the long game of AP resetting everything into INT once my main skills are maxed, then levelling up to reap the extra MP benefits, then AP resetting it back to LUK (yes this will take years, and yes at this point remaking would be so much easier but where's the fun in forcing yourself to go through the cancer of creating a mage/bishop for hs just to self leech yourself - no offense to players who enjoy these classes. I just personally don't).

It's definitely more of a time thing, where yeah sure, playing casually is always good seeing as you're having fun, yet later down the track that feeling that your character and time could've been utilized more effectively becomes a real thing.

From the interactions I've had, there's a growing sentiment in players who would consider purposely damage-nerfing themselves by not hp washing, rather just pump AP into HP till you reach your goal to be able to participate in runs. I've never hosted nor played late-game content before so i'm not sure if this path would lead to higher groups of people being able to boss albeit rather slowly thanks to their lack in damage.

I keep telling myself i'll never come back to this 2003 Mushroom game, yet here i am.

 

Whatever happened to the thread with the guy who had all the math to show that like ~80 int was optimal for reaching 9k hp? I feel like people slept on that thread too hard so now people still have a lot of old ideas about how to wash their characters. Maybe the only mistake there was being a bit too nerdy for casual folks.

Guide for reaching 9k hp as chill as possible:
Get 80 base int by level 50 or 60
Need 2.2k mp to get 3.3k extra hp on a thief/bowman
Let's say you get 1000 mp from leveling up with that int from 50-160(That's with some minimal gear like a zhelm, it can be increased further)
Need to MP wash for 1200 mp then
200 mp washes at 6 mp per mp wash
You'd then mp wash for a total of 40 levels of AP @ 80 int, mostly when you have extra NX

That's an average of about 2 mp washes every level, which should be enough for you to accumulate and use NX as you just play the game casually, especially later on when you don't feel like punching through a level every day and can build some NX up.

It's a way of playing that doesn't require a mage, as a character with 80 int is serviceable. It doesn't require funds for int gear either, as all of your MP will be coming from MP washing. You can just play the game, and make little bits of progress as you go, none of them major, just dampening the efforts you'll need to do later. In total, between mp washing, hp washing, and resetting int it will total about 1.4mil nx, which is about 7 months of voting at 6.5k nx per day, less with voting events and in-game events providing some speedups. That's probably less time than it takes to reach 160 on a casual character. This is something you can do on a character just starting out, and if you stick to it you'll have enough to do just about every piece of content in the game comfortably. Do this, grab some of the HP gears, and you'll be good to play no matter how far you end up going, all while playing the character that you want to play. It's a bit complex to wrap your head around but it's a solid option for what's currently out there.

 

I think it's time to make yet another megawall thread of HP washing to collate all this information. You don't suppose you have that link to that thread by any chance? because i've been scouring the forums for info but have never come across it.

 

I was looking for it too before I replied but I didn't have any luck either. I looked through the guides section and Help & Advice and couldn't find it anywhere. I don't think it even had more than a page of comments which is a shame because it does put things into perspective with NX costs for HP gains. Unless they're already super established and sure that this is the game for them, folks should just get the idea of a 200+ int character out of their heads, it isn't optimal at all to do that starting out and the focus should be on getting enough HP to do everything comfortably.

 

and that's exactly the type of information that everyone should be aware of. YOU HAVE OPTIONS GUYS!.

At some stage i want to also do the math on the viability of pumping AP into HP without washing it back out (seeing as this was definitely one of the originally intended mechanics) just so that new players don't get disheartened. Yes, your damage will be nerfed, but realistically speaking even without that nerf, how likely would it be that you scroll perfect equips and have the same/if not better damage output than others? yes DPM is a highly contested topic when it comes to efficient runs, but I hope that this would at least open up the option and real possibility of new players on their first characters being able to create and join new bossing squads (albeit in a damage-nerfed manner)

 

You would still need to make a bish to ress your NL in case you die due to your low HP threshold and other’s ppl mistake not buffing you on time. Oops multi-clienting in bosses are banned

 

Can I add this to a post I just created?

 

You can't solo horntail even if you have enough HP anyway because of seds and 2 hour limit. People do 6 man runs, not 1 man runs.

 

For solo gameplay, go be a Sair. NLs can’t solo.

 

People say to wash because while it's true that most players will not even reach bossing levels, for those who do, didn't wash at all, and are playing a low HP class, they often run into the scenario of suddenly being isolated from their friend group since they cannot boss with them because of a lack of HB or simply not having enough HP to fight a boss even with HB. This is extremely demotivating to people and it very often leads to people either restarting their characters or just quitting altogether.

People talk about Horntail as the be all end all boss you need x amount of HP for, but on the way to 155 you may run into plenty of scenarios in which you are unable to join your friends in fighting lesser bosses. Want to fight Latanica during 3rd job, or Pianus or Ergoth in early 4th job? Gonna need HB. Manon and Griffey? Will only be possible by 120 if you have a decently leveled up monster book ring and other HP equips at that point. Wanna fight Crow/Anego in early 4th job? Doable, but you'll need a friend to help draw aggro and hold the map when you die, because any mistake will kill you and people will not hesitate to steal your map the moment you die. Later on there's Ravana which you'll need HB for, targa which will you'll most likely need HB and a T10 ring for, and a handful of bosses you will flat out not be able to do at all like Jiaoceng, Vergamot, Dunas, and Toad.

Not trying to say horntail isn't important, but if you get demotivated by not being able to join your friends in trying out all sorts of random bosses along the way you may not even make it to HT. It's a shitty feeling and even doing a bare minimum amount of washing (with int gear, but no base int) can help you avoid this kind of issue.

 

I think the main issue is if you can wash even a little why wouldn’t you? Even if you don’t add any base int you will still be wearing items such as zak helm dep star and rings that can bump up your int to 20+ depending on the stats.

And wearing very cheap gear (especially from the event int scrolls) can bump that up to atleast 50+ very easily.

with that you should be at a comfortable hp with the rest of the possible hp gear provided.

the main difference is that no you definitely don’t need to go crazy and add 200 int or wash 30k clean. That choice is strictly up to you.

 

i hard agree, even in a different maple private server where I didn't HP wash I wouldn't even get recruited into a Scarlion/Targa run lol.

 

This, 100% agree. It's not just HT, its a bunch of bosses that you cant do at certain optimal level range, like what Crayo mentioned, some bosses you can never do them even at 200 and with the HP gears ML give you. Also some considerations are that some HP Gears are not that easily obtainable compared to do simple washing (In short, it might be easier/worth to do light washing than to get those HP Gears).

 

sashie a word of advice. You know you are allowed to vote on multiple account in this server right?

Go ahead and play to your heart content your unwash NL, don't let anyone decide what you want to do, but at the same time, do prepare a separate spare account and vote on it consistently.

 

Maybe I'm crazy, but something that's always bewildered me about these discussions is the idea that remaking a character is inherently a bad thing. If you enjoyed leveling an NL up to 120 and at that point decide that you don't have as much HP as you'd like, why wouldn't you enjoy doing it a second time? I'm evidently in the minority here, but I've made three priests, two ice lightning mages and two chief bandits because I simply find it fun to play them. In each new iteration, I have min-maxed a bit harder, making the old characters obsolete in one way or another, but I've never seen it as a problem.

 

Majority of the time, if a player is making another NL, it'll probably have 120+ base int and most likely succumb to leech life.