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Information February 2023 Balance Changes [Explained]

Discussion in 'Update Notes' started by Nise, Feb 19, 2023.

  1. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Not actually since Berserk only transforms MONSTER damage to 1/1. Environmental damage (aka pillars, falling rocks, etc) remain unchanged.

    Here's a fun photo of me messing around with it~
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    they only hit around 45k right?
     
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  3. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Is poison from a monster considered monster or environmental damage?
    eg cornian attack on hit poison or horntail tail cloud
     
  4. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Do remember that none of these changes are set in stone. If a significant portion of players believe these changes are too harsh or drastic, they could be reverted. That said, we would need an alternative approach to substitute the current change with.

    We do understand that build creativity in MMOs ( as mentioned by AverdantAverdant ) is an important part of the game. Ideally, we would continuing allowing such creativity. Unfortunately, there was no "delicate" measure we could think of to tackle the issue of the beginner HP/MP formula being way too beneficial and normalizing an unhealthy meta:
    • Mage mules becoming more desirable than mage mains: as they have the ability to do MAJORITY of the things mage mains can do, with even better survivability and less attention needed
    • Potion subverting DKs with insane farming prowess: which invalidates efforts of other players that trained up their mains traditionally, who either need to spend MUCH MORE for potion and gear (eg. mage mains) to match their farming abilities OR have much lower farming efficiency (eg. non-mage mains)
    We wanted to take our time to come up with more "delicate" and "measured" solutions, but at the same time we felt that this was a time-sensitive matter. The more prevalent the aforementioned trends become, the more it damages the efforts of existing mains. From a balance perspective, this is something we simply cannot risk.

    As much as we want to allow creativity, if it jeopardizes the relevancy of the originally intended playstyle of the game (mains), which we believe these two scenarios would, we have no choice but to be firm and decisive. For example, HH mules in the past did not outclass the paladin mains. Hence, we explored various avenues and tried to handle it in a more reserved manner. Ultimately arriving at the changes we did for HH. Meanwhile, these beginner characters do outclass the respective mains.

    If there are any alternative solutions players can think of that scale down the power level of these beginner characters (existing and those in progress), while keeping them in a balanced fashion, please let us know we'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter. But at the same time, I hope you can understand where the staff team is coming from.
     
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  5. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    any chance of have a revert if it don't work? as people said, some maps have alot of peoples looking for a space, as thread say, alot of people do some boss expedition (core blaze for example), and if vallentine's event bring baskets it can bring a big problem
     
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  6. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    The reason why the current solution feels somewhat dissatisfying is that a handful of players are still left with their completed beginner characters, and they are like with an exclusive advantage which can never be recreated ever again.

    As for alternatives on what to do, I think that for the case of beginner mages, they are not as overpowered as you might think and nothing should be done. As people have mentioned before, a 20k hp mage is nowhere near as game breaking as a 30k NL. The former gives you a couple convenient advantages in certain niche situations, but for the most part beginner mages play about the same as conventionally washed mages. The latter entirely breaks the overall class balance and defines the endgame bossing meta, the current PB meta of running multiple small runs and tanking the right bird sed is only possible due to high HP thieves. Further beginner mages require an absurd amount of NX, significantly more than any 30k ranged character or any other washing project in the game. I think that for such an absurd investment, its not really overpowered for beginner mages to have a couple advantages over conventionally washed mages.

    For the case of farming DKs, I do think they are more problematic in the longterm, but this an be addressed with DK specific changes. Examples might include making roar require some minimum amount of HP to cast, forcing a flat HP gain upon job advancement, etc. Something like this would have minimal impact to normal DK players and nerf farming dks sufficiently such that they are on par with mages.
     
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  7. Mageor
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    Mageor Mr. Anchor

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    Does taking damage from damage reflection while in zerk active reduce hp to 1?
     
  8. Edann
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    Edann Slimy Retired Staff

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    I love playing a mage in Maple Legends
     
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  9. Eighty
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    Eighty Windraider

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    Great work ML team! The changes sound great! The pot cost reduction and fewer USE slots needed during active zerk is also much appreciated :)
     
  10. ljtino3
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    ljtino3 Slime

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    NiseNise The reduction is the number of channels will create more map steals, and people waiting for grinders/leechers to take a 5 min break to grab them.
    I think it will have a very negative effect on the community.
    I urge the ML staff to reconsider this.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  11. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    We will monitor how it plays out and adjust accordingly if we think this is necessary.
     
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  12. ShadowerZhi
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    ShadowerZhi Slime

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    Really loving what the balance team is doing here even though I have not, and probably will not be playing a Dark Knight at all!

    This, together with all the other recent and past changes, are making this old-school game stay relevant and also worthwhile to play, beyond just for the nostalgic factor. If you had stayed 100% "authentic 1:1 v62" until today, I probably would have stopped playing a long time ago once I had my nostalgia-cravings fixed. But here I am, still playing this game 3 years later and can't wait to see what will you guys bring to the table in the coming years. (As a casual player, I am really hyped for the HP Challenge System).

    Once again, thank you for all the effort you've put in to make this what-should-have-been-outdated mushroom game remain fresh and a meaningful part of our lives.
     
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  13. Swesticer
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    Swesticer Orange Mushroom

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    The real stealth buff is NLs now being able to get HB for all content :cool:
     
  14. Edann
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    Edann Slimy Retired Staff

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    Becoming?

    Name 10 mage mains
     
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  15. Averdant
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    Averdant King Slime

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    I think Selquin already has some good inputs on a) and c)

    For b) It isn't the best comparison because you didn't include the drawbacks for the enhanced HP gain ratio from the "new build". If you were to tell me a new NL/BM build has been discovered that instead of washing [+16 HP -12 MP] washes [+80 HP -12 MP], but you are only allowed to start adding LUK/DEX to play after voting for 3.5 years instead of just 1 year I would think it's not broken. The real "tax" on the beginner mage build is not the lost SP nor the insane 11.2m lifetime NX required, but that an insane amount of NX (8.2m NX) has to be frontloaded at the start of the project.

    A 30k NL is a 2.5 years project and a 20k beginner mage is a 4.38 years project, the beginner mage project already takes much longer but the focus is not on how long it takes to complete the projects and rather about how long your char is crippled for. A 30k NL is only crippled for 1 year before it becomes playable (fully MP washed, no base INT) while a 20k beginner mage is crippled for around 3.5 years of voting to become barely playable (3.24 years to job advance at lvl 120 and have no MP to cast gene/blizz/meteor, another 0.2 years to MP wash for 33 levels to achieve 15k base MP at lvl 153 for barely 2 casts of meteor/blizzard).

    As Selquin said, a beginner mage is not considered meta in the game unlike the 30k NLs that dominate PB runs and shape the bossing metas. It is also not realistic for beginner mages to become the meta as a 30k NL takes 2.5 years of voting to complete, and a 20k beginner mage takes 4.38 years of voting to complete. It makes more sense to vote for 4 x 30k NL atker for a multi-atker meta instead. Furthermore the 20k beginner mage is crippled for the first 3.5 years of voting unlike 30k NLs that can go bossing after 1 year. IMO a meta would have to be something that everyone would actively choose to go for it because it's the most optimal way to play the game, but with the bars this unrealistically high it's impossible for it to become the meta.
    It's like saying level 163 ele staff is the best in slot weapon instead of lvl 150 ele wand for AMs, possible but unrealistic because you'll be required to spam chaos scrolls on TL shoes + TL gloves + helm + pb pendant + TL shield + TL OA which makes it an insurmountable task and an insanely bad investment. Anyone who dreams of making an army of 4 x 20k beginner mages just because it's the "meta" would quickly be disappointed when reality hits them that they are crippled as a beginner for 3.24 years. The frontloading of the massive NX required is an issue heavily underestimated by people who see the glorious 20k hp and don't stop to think about the difficulty that entails.

    I cannot think of it as anything more than a passion project with an incredibly high difficulty level for the most devoted players pushing their limits because they love the game.
    While 20k mage beginners may outclass main mages, it comes at an incredibly high cost of being locked out of playing for the first 3.5 years of voting and I think that already justifies the benefits for the level of patience and dedication required.

    I appreciate staff being open to receiving feedback and suggestions on the balance changes and reassuring us that nothing is set in stone yet. For now I feel that mage beginners don't require anymore restrictions than they already do before this balance change, and I really liked the solutions Selquin offered for the beginner dk issue.
     
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  16. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    I thought beginner mages were their main. Nobody’s going to throw in 10m mx for a mule, myself included. Blame the frontloading of NX.

    Playable NL = 12k/30k
    Playable FP* = 20k/15k

    *obviously a gas guzzler

    For anyone who’s washed to 30k (not warrior or bucc) the most expensive part of washing is converting MP to HP. Beginner mage method forces NX expenditure earlier rather than later.

    I would also want to reinterate again that there are limits to beginner mages such as a limited SP pool. My example is the impossibility of actually controlling minibeans on my FP. By the time my meteor hits, they’re already flapping about the map.

    In case of beginner DK all you need is to revert to min HP values upon job advance. That would destroy the method without requiring a sledgehammer as even my lv150 dks have lower than warrior minimum HP.
     
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  17. pjnob1e
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    pjnob1e Blue Snail

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    Is the animation for beserk now ONLY those horns on the head, as seen in the teaser on the ML discord, rather than the full body animation of horns appearing around the feet of the character? If so, it is an unnecessary and ridiculous change.. The beserk animation was the coolest visual effect of being a DrK, and should NOT be changed. Why try to encourage gameplay of DrKs, yet take away the most appealing and most unique visual effect of the job? Am I misunderstanding?
     
  18. Milkydoor
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    Milkydoor Timer

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    I would also like to throw in my personal vote as a mage lover with a beginner mage in progress as my true end game passion project.

    I think others have made many excellent points that don't need reiterating, but I'll add as a very avid bishop player that we all know the class struggles from muleability because of its skill design, so shouldn't changes be focused on its skills to reduce mule efficacy without harming mains?

    I hate being a mule in content and am constantly looking for more to do, so if muling was an issue, I would much prefer something akin to the TL change (as inconvenient as it can be) for bishops than removing beginner washing, which requires a huge amount of dedication and sacrifice as-is.
     
  19. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    that's maplelegends, abuse broken things before they fix it (usually in a few months/years), i'm 100% sure they're not going to do anything.
    At this point they should just make a daily quest without HP cap as a meso sink too, unreachable status is just unfair and pathetic design.
     
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