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Give players who are lv90/100+ options to level up

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by xDarkomantis, Sep 16, 2022.

  1. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    So many I keep forgetting
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    Fael actually helps a huge portion of new players :) At this point you guys are both just throwing shit though
     
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  2. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    if you think I or the other players didnt say anything against ur arguments then theres nothing much I can add. I like to hear and talk about suggestions but just because you came from another server youre judging you know more about the server you just entered and youre being aggressive and thats not cool. Youre basically ignoring all the older players are talking and also adverstising some other shitty servers here.
     
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  3. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    This thread really shows how few people have actually trained a ranged character through third job on their first playthrough and ended with a functional attacker. Some classes being remarkably easy in third job really just accentuates the divide that exists, and saying that your I/L mage or White Knight did just fine is a deliberately obtuse in the denial that there is a problem with the massive gap between classes.

    It just sounds obnoxious and tone-deaf when people who have leveraged every advantage they have in every additional character they've made to tell newer players how the game is actually easy. I've trained a non-funded outlaw through third job, and overall it probably took 2-3 times longer than if it were a melee class or a mage(except f/p lol), and probably 3-4 times as long compared to if I had just self-leeched him. Even then, the training was only possible due to an unreasonable level of knowledge about this game and an understanding of how much HP I would end up needing and how to get there. Another often overlooked aspect is that training has a significantly higher attention tax on ranged characters compared to any counterparts to go along with the significantly slower pace. Keeping gap, watching HP, and chaining skills took a lot more attention than any of the unga bunga classes that allowed me to just stare at another window while playing.

    Elitists really should just not talk about new player experiences. It's clear how little they've left their boxes since attaining any sort of toys.
     
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  4. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    I actually grinded a washing ranged to 140 (19k hp potential) without any kind of help from other chars and could put my hands on good gears like a +5 neschere.
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...g-is-doable-journal-3-inspired-by-ainz.41658/
    I also played on Ossyrians and some other personal projects where I did suboptimal contents and I know things are doable lol. Yeah, you need knowledge like any other game you play but this is part of the experience. We all started at some point and I was completely new not long ago.
     
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  5. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The reality is this difficulty for ranged classes overcoming 3rd job compared to their cleaving counterparts is intended design as a part of holistic balancing between the classes. At the end of the day, it is a testament to how broken leech is to this server.
     
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  6. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    Of course I am ignoring what the older players like you are talking about.

    Because it doesn't matter. It literally doesn't matter what you say unless you have actual, feasible, potentially viable things to offer to people to help them get through this part of the game, like -ovv said about ludibrim (maybe). Monster cards, unnamed quests, or leeching are not it, and you're just insulting people's intelligence to suggest they are viable.

    At the end of the day, this is the reality:
    The 3rd job 4th job gap is unnecessarily harder/slower than it needs to be. It's boring. It leads people to quitting. It leads people to not progressing. It leads to more people leeching, less people training together, less interaction. No amount of empty platitudes, "Maple should be hard, this game requires knowledge, old school Maple special, etc, etc" changes the state of this particular meta that is, in comparison to other servers and arguably even old school GMS, definitely slower and/or more monotonous. No amount of time you or anyone else have spent playing changes this state of the game as viewed by new players. Somehow you've made that leap of logic that I don't agree with those platitudes when I have literally played other low rate servers and I play them for low rates.

    It doesnt matter what is in the game already and what you can and can't do (unless theres content people dont know about). I am commenting particularly on an area of the game that applies to new players, to me, to my friends, and my guildmates, not any other phase of the game I have yet to experience. So don't act like a new player experience doesn't matter in particular to an area of the game that is relevant to new players just because theyre not buying your BS and don't act like having experience from other servers doesn't matter either, especially if youve never touched them. It is horribly elitist to suggest neither of those things matter as it implies MapleLegends is perfect, and how you are "supposed to play it" is perfect, and MageStory is anything BUT perfect. I trash on Royals, I have played other servers, and paying attention to how certain things are approached, how the new player experience varies server to server, and what things are particularly good, and sharing discoveries is going to be infinitely more useful than telling people to hunt Monster Cards.

    Many people recognize it, even the staff. That is why they have a PQ overhaul planned for this. That is why they have a defense overhaul planned to help alleviate the issues with HP washing.

    So let me be clear: MapleLegends should be hard. Old school Maple was hard. But the 3rd job/4th job gap is harder and more boring than it should be. So yes, it should be made a little bit easier, so that you don't run into a grey-colored wall unlike the phases before and after. It does not mean "insta 4th job". It does not mean "make game easy", it does not mean getting to 4th job should be easy at all. It means that a player who invests the time to train shouldn't be bored out of their mind, go broke tossing away their luck-generated gachapon wealth with buying leech, or see horribly tiny gains for their effort. To pretend that this problem isn't a problem because you can hunt monster cards or you can buy leech is insulting.

    And no, you have said nothing relevant to any of my arguments. Empty platitudes and nonviable options are not relevant. Talking about what ideas may or may not be a good idea are relevant, but you've done none of that.
     
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  7. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    upload_2022-9-20_12-20-19.png
     
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  8. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    Here we see the Mushroom Game Sweaty in their natural habitat.

    Wallowing in their self-induced tears of elitism when *gasp*, someone didn't agree with them.

    whY uSE braIN wHeN JUst MaKE mEmE Cuz MaD
     
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  9. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    This is just flat out wrong. Harder and more time consuming does not necessarily mean it needs to be boring. Sure, the pace of grinding may be slower than all of 2nd job - that's intended. But to say it's boring just shows me that you're just like everybody else who guns for 4th job only to realize 4th job is just the same grind in different format and then quits. What Fael has been telling you this entire time is that this race to the finish line is ussually not all that it's chalked up to be. Sure, you'll get flashy new gears, cool new skills, and get to new bosses, but how long before that novelty wears off? How many Zakums does it take for you to realize the 20 hour grind at Gallos is now being transferred to 200 hours of Zakum runs, then 600 hours of Horntail, then 800+ hours of mage farming to save towards a perfect weapon?

    Fael's perspective comes from experience playing both ways - one of a sweaty grinder that feels the need to rush to accomplish everything, the other from a player that enjoys the journey along the way up. The reality is the grind IS the fun in this game. That's what MapleLegends is.
     
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  10. OP
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    xDarkomantis
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    xDarkomantis Mushmom

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    I think that should be taken to KimberlyKimberly. When forums have Vote/Downvote or Likes/Reactions, it promotes herd behavior, encourages funny/meme posts (or people clowning others), and discourages dissenting opinions. People are less likely to make their own detailed comment (even if it's a short response) and just press a button. Players who have been on the forums for a long time and have their own cliques can rely on friends/like minded individuals to back them up (helping them "win") while newer people or people who rarely interact on forums that could possibly share a damning argument are put down. This typically results in people who have dissenting opinions just opting to either post less often, give up & only make "positive"/karma farming posts, or not interact with the forums/quit altogether. This is troubling on the Suggestions forums which involves needing constructive discussions for Staff members to consider for the future of the server.

    There's some good posts in here already but if I had the option to disable being able to use Reactions in this thread to force people to actually make a post rather than reactions, then I'd do it. We already have a person in this thread resort to using a meme (which will result in him gathering likes/reactions) when he should be trying to re-elaborate his points in a concise manner (for Staff and his opponents to read) and exiting the conversation.
     
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  11. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    Well there you said it "everyone who guns for 4th job".

    Can you guess how many people there are for that? What proportion of the playerbase is that? I would say significant enough that there would be people who would come onto the forums to share their thoughts, and we know that forums are more heavily represented by dedicated players.

    Sure the future will include lots of bossing. That is the goal for many players. People prefer that than being stuck at late 3rd early 4th. And if people get to that phase, it's probably going to mean they're playing ML longer than if they were stuck at lvl 110.

    Mage farming and making wealth and how much more efficient/good for the server is another topic altogether.

    I am coming from the perspective of having actually played 4th job on multiple servers. I am coming from the perspective of having played many times more hours in the end game than 3rd job. That includes the min-maxing of gear. And I am rather certain that people would much rather grind that than be slogged in 3rd job. Maybe for many people, THAT grind is more fun than the late 3rd job slog.

    Hey if the grind is fun for Fael or whoever else when they're stuck at third job or whatever, good for them. It's still irrelevant to what a greater proportion of players feel, especially if they're stuck with a ton of INT. And I think many people, many many people, don't like washing when it's necessary. And there is no grind for that. So implying that others should just have fun like how they have fun... doesn't do a thing for anyone.

    And so for the good of MORE people and therefore overall health of the server, some change would be nice. And it doesn't affect people like Fael a damn bit. So not sure why people like him feel the need to come on here and tell people go hunt monster cards. I haven't seen any guides for getting through this phase of the game unlike guides for like lvl 1 - 40 or whatever else.

    Either it speaks to how good leech is or how slow the game is at this part.
     
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  12. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    LPQ.
    GPQ.
    CWKPQ.
    Literally grinding for NX tickets.

    Yep, no grind for that. Washing requirements are a problem, but gathering NX is also the easiest and most grindable it's ever been in this server for players trying to wash above their paygrade. And there literally is an instant NX button too in voting. :cool:
     
  13. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    The amounts of LPQ are small and finite.

    I don't know if I've ever seen anyone at GPQ but I haven't been in a guild to see that.

    CWKPQ is for 135+. Not sure if Intlords are welcome there.

    Yes we can grind. And I definitely appreciate that. But still it's very luck-based. And the amount a bowmaster or NL or corsair have to wash is tremendous. And the irony is, the more they have to wash, the less damage they do, thus the harder it is to grind.
     
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  14. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    And now we're back to the card hunting point. Lower level mobs die tend to die easier and have more chances for nx drops as well as gach drops and equip drops for a bit of meso too (which can literally buy exp). Sadly we want to have our cake and eat it too...
     
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  15. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    I tried to explain my point of view. It's insane to think how you can tell this guy was coming up with a constructive discussion. He was literally being aggressive the whole time + advertising other servers, which is far from something constructive. I said I would like to talk about those changes, that I didn't disagree about it, I shared a bit of my experience from my journal, me and also TarnishedTarnished suggested some things to make the process easier, I even argued with other old players here about your topic which means clearly there was no "herd behavior", but the only thing you're highlighting is the final meme lmao. Sometimes the toxicity is the only answer for aggressive behaviors.
     
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  16. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    Seriously seems you read nothing that I said. And I'm not the only writting wall texts. What do you think I do when I'm playing maple? You think I have tons of 3rd job chars to grind them til 4th? lol
    I know it's tiring and I also don't like it. I just think that there are MANY ways to overcome these levels and that this is necessary for the game. But I would agree with some other contents like exclusive party quests or even new bosses for 3rd job lvl range, for example, so people would be free to choose.
    But at this point I don't even want to discuss anything here anymore. That's enough.
     
  17. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    My dude.

    The very first thing you posted was: grind for cards, do quests, buy leech.

    It does not take very much at all to see the hundred things wrong with those options.

    It does not take very much at all to see what is wrong with you implying "this is how I have fun so maybe you should too".

    Because all that means to me is you're insulting people's intelligence and couldn't give a flying damn about the new player experience, about player retention, and what is better overall for more people.

    Now do I like the option for hunting cards, doing quests, and leeching? Yes. I am doing all of them. It doesn't change very much the actual facet of grinding at this stage and how much of a slog it is for seemingly little return.
     
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  18. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    ofc bruh let me draw it for you
    there are 2 options to get exp: you grind or you buy leech. you said grinding is tiring so i suggested you ways to make mesos so you can buy leech. but you're also complaining about leech.
    go watch some netflix or anything else wth
     
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  19. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    Ofc bruh let me draw it for you

    Grinding sucks because it's slow and gets harder when the monsters get stronger while you don't or have 100+ int.

    Buying leech sucks because its... the only efficient way to level up.

    What does that say about the state of the game that buying someone else to train you while you afk to progress is by far the most efficient way to level up with wealth you may or may not have?

    How much more obvious can it get? Both options currently suck.
     
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  20. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I come from playing GMS Beta and was there when 3rd job/Ludi was released. I was there when the various strategies of platform/party grinding emerged beyond the slog of 2nd job Zombie grinding. The reason why people hate 3rd job in MapleLegends is because it's been entirely taken out of context of party play and this server largely promotes individual play. If you look closely at map and skill design meant for those levels, they heavily encouraged party grinding. The problem is that 4th job also exists and leech is so prevalent that players in this server have never been required to find effective strategies for fun/efficient ways to progress together. It's a systematic issue because leech uproots the need to even play 3rd job entirely.

    50 hours of optimized solo grinding might be boring, sure, but 100 hours of party grinding with friends, guildmates, etc. is pretty fun - I've done it before, and it's basically the same experience you'll have party bossing from 4th job and beyond. The problem is this server doesn't have enough players that stick around in 3rd job - whether it's due to the mundaneness or due to people taking up alternatives like leech that change each person's journey through 4th.

    I've seen it time and time again. People gun through 2nd job because it's fun and quick with 2x rates. They get to 3rd job and plateau around level 90+, then they start buying leech till 120. Once they get to 120, they realize that the grind still continues forever, and then they quit. It's not because 3rd job is boring or mundane. This game is pretty mundane all around if all you try to do is achieve the next goal without enjoying the journey along the way.
     
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