Horntail’s Left Head Attack: A Necessary Change for Bishop Survival

on the actual topic, Nightz ‘s suggestion is great and actually addresses a wider issue that we’ll (hopefully) see more prevalence of once challenge players take off in endgame content and get wiped when their hb gets “perfect” framed

psi aside, layered attacks with instantaneous, iframeless dps are ultimately not well designed and changing to a fairer system also lets you put more of these skill checks in the game. we can triple left head damage and now all of us need to mg on time - sounds good!

but more importantly:

nah don’t hold back, it’s 100% the case. the worst offenders are those who fixate only on their limited perspectives and crucify themselves on the most obscure hills, only to say a year later “haha past me was so silly lol!”

easy to forget we’re all supposedly grown adults here lol

 

Let’s have dp do 1 dmg?

 

The gap between washed and unwashed bishops can be closed with the wheel of

 

enough buddy
the main argument was start from left head, stop ignoring that
on your GIF it shows you had 7k HP and you still died, that's not even an unavoidable situation to prove your own point

 

At this point op is refusing accept anything except that their word is law. We gave plenty of solutions that have worked in the past. As for posting gifs and evidence, just look at how many ht’s clear vs how many fail. Its starting to get frustrating that every option and solution thrown at this “issue” is being disregarded.

 

It's usually unnoticed when you didn't die.

When I bring bs mule or mage looter, I always alt-tab mg *after* dp happens.
And I never noticed such perfect frames.

 

I agree OP is ignoring a lot of solutions people have proposed, and should be more open minded (i'm sorry elitists are giving you crap, but some points are right). But also a lot of people saying "we had to go through this shit so you should too" are ignoring that the current ecosystem is very different from the past. Also people posting "i only accept the best bishops in my HT runs to avoid this problem"....how's that helping discussion in this thread at all? It is truly ironic that even though a lot of people make bishop first, bishop is the hardest class in HT.

I think DP should just come with i-frame to avoid this situation, it'll help not only in HT, but also in Auf and other bosses. I think it's better solution than increasing HP from hp challenge, and helps more cases than just meeting HP thresholds without MG.

 

You don’t become a better bishop by asking for changes. That’s the point.

 

sure buddy, all i see is you just going on and on about what you want, what you need, what you require. I dont think this thread benefits from knowing what YOU need in your own HT runs.

 

They already answered that lol if it's cancelling too much, you can move to the right side. Yeah, it's suboptimal depending of your squad, but that's doable and it's important if you want to keep the bishops safe. You gotta learn to have an idea of how much damage is being dealt in a certain head and ask people to stop if needed. That's part of the knowledge that you will learn after doing many runs.
Besides, even if you don't want to move to the other side, you will greatly reduce the number of situations in which you can die for a perfect frame, because even if you activate the mid head dispels, the left head will be probably dead soon. In one of your GIFs, the mid head was already dead when you died for a arm dispel, like... It means you were giving the chance of dying for this "unavoidable situation" for so long, man. If there's a cleave hitting arms, it should care about activating the dispel, specially if there's a bishop that can't survive, lol. Make him go to heads or switch between arms.

 

I think that maybe what people wanted to say is that there are some suboptimal things you should do when you're starting, like: starting from right head is faster, yeah, but if you don't have a bishop that can survive the ice attack/aren't familiar with all mechanics yet, then it's safer to start from left side. And I personally think this has nothing to do with elitism.
In my opinion, playing as bishop on HT is by far the most challenging content in this game, because there are literally so many more techniques you need to learn to optimize your gameplay than the other jobs I've played (I confess I didn't choose the hardest ones tho). If you just make things easier, I think we all gonna lose. That problem is literally 100% adressed if you change the strategy of your boss fight, so why not?

 

The server doesn’t benefit from this thread. All it’s doing is polarizing the new players from the old and it’s a played out narrative repeated every fuxking time. The problem here is that the people who don't know what they're talking about won't understand and will continue to carry on thinking they're right until they play long enough to realize they were being ignorant.

I have a standard because I've played long enough to see the types of players coem and go, and catering only to the new players because they don't immediately 'get it' is detrimental to the longevity of this server. People are casual until they aren't. Sometimes all it takes a run or two to spark interest or curiosity because of a random interaction with another player who challenges them and shows them, but it's impossible to foster the future of players by watering down the game any time someone with platform complains.

 

I do agree on many guys mentioning that GIF clip says OP wasn't perfect (as we all aren't!) and there was chance of surviving if OP behaved different, or, being better in his own player skills. I do agree. But, that doesn't mean 1bsp HT contents should be harsh like that for only 1 class, which isn't even allowed to do death by mistake (because can't be ressed), while other 5 players are 1key braindead netflixing.

I wish to ask you guys back. I of course respect your experience and skills that can comment and advice for his skills, but Do we really need to be harsh like that, making it as standard, for whole servers bsp players? My answer is no. Yes, such micromanaging and microoptimizing skills are great thing and players who can perform it can be welcomed from many runs, but asking such nerdy play on whole servers bsp players seems completely nonsense considering how other classes play in same content is. Let me bring another example - are we all should be pro gamer level to attend just a contents? like, to play league, should we be at least challenger level? to play SC2, grandmaster level required? we aren't deserve to have some fun time if we aren't in such levels? no, and MUST not be.

Such hard skill-gated contents eventually makes pro players to ask ridiculous standard on bsp player, I see problem comes from there. It is hard to deal with player skill in low spec, and realistically, can't be perfect every time. OK, let's just ask bsp to be mega carry spec because I want safe and stable run. No, this isn't solution of this problem.

I really wish to ask all pro players in here, do we really need to be 'harsh' and 'cruel' on single class, asking milisecond micro nerding for whole run and also asking 6m+ nx washing and 3~10b gearing with lv.200ish, while other classes are having so much easy and sweet life?

Asking skilled pro players to try to be perfect, and asking it on whole servers players is completely different thing. I already see so many bsps stuck in skeles, fearing attending HT thanks for this skill-gated issue, or, gave up to attend HT run after few tries having no good instructors, got roasted.

Ironic that I do think OPs suggestion benefits whole server a lot and eventually allows me to retire.

 

I’m not expecting perfection, but I do want to see more aspirations towards excellence. Everyone on here understands that mistakes happen and nobody can play perfectly.

When you make a mistake, even one that, realistically, 99.99% of people would make, you can do one of two things:
- you can say “it’s not my fault, I shouldn’t be expected to play perfectly, there’s nothing I could’ve done”
OR
- you can say “yeah that was tough, I can see what went wrong and what could’ve been done better, I don’t know if I’ll be able to do it every time but I’d like to try!”

We don’t need to expect perfection, but at the same time it’s a shame to settle for mediocrity. We should all be aspiring to do and be better, even if the odds are against us, even if it’s hard, even if we feel like we can’t. Absolving yourself of any wrongdoing just because something seems hard doesn’t make sense to me; just take responsibility and try to improve where you can. Nobody is expecting perfection all the time (unless your IGN is "Trlnltyy", then perfection is kinda expected)

 

my answer to this is also no. No one class should have to have harsh standards, but some unfortunately do.
As someone who does not call themselves a pro player (I am far from it)
and plays a class where dying to random bullshit always happens whether its from poison 1/1, active zerk lagging, active zerk not working, and pots not being registered when used. I know first hand when a death was bullshit and unavoidable. So it boils my blood when someone says a death that they had was due to an ingame mechanic that was unavoidable when the evidence and tips given would 100% have prevented that death from even happening.

The reason why all these suggestions started popping up in the first place is due to op specifically saying that his 2 examples of "perfect frame scenarios" were unavoidable deaths and would make the skill issue argument null (see in this quote here)

My original response was giving direct feedback and tips that op could use to mitigate dying to "perfect frame" and what could have been done better on his part. Now the issue I have with these responses are the constant spouting of "that wont work" "that wont work" "that wont work" and "that wont work" when we all know these methods have worked in the past and OP has not tried them themselves.
Just like how other classes have to do suboptimal strategies in order to survive in other content, ex: BMs doing melee range hurricane in bean, BMs using strafe instead of hurricane on anything that has DR, DKs not zerking in endgame content despite doing absolute dog water damage so that they dont die, corsairs boat zerking and taking probably the most concentration to play compared to any other class, and other examples that I am probably forgetting.
My problem isnt with low skill bishops, my problem is with low skill bishops that refuse to adapt and learn by taking in the information that is readily available on the forums/website/ other players.
now when it comes to 12 mans, sure go ahead do whatever you want. Use those runs as a way to learn how to run a boss and gather information should you not want to use the forums or ask other people.
But when it comes to 6 man runs, I would expect everyone in the party to at least understand and know what animation DP is from both mid head and left arm and noticing from their 12 man runs that they've run in the past when the DP actually takes effect so that they may be able to react to the animation and do something/ANYTHING to not die to a "perfect frame"
But overall:
Do I think it's fair that a mechanic such as "perfect frame" exists in the game? no I do not
Should the bishop in your 6 man runs know what animations are what and what to do when they see those animations? yes, yes they should. especially if they proclaim themselves to be a sed bishop.

And btw this is the closest thing I have ever seen to a "perfect frame"

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/694273346

^
that is what I would consider unfair and it only happens once in a blue moon.
now how could this have been avoided in the first place? by starting left instead of clapping the crap out of right side and letting the cleave who SHOULD ALSO KNOW THAT THEY SHOULDNT wail all they want on that left arm and wing with their party comp. (old clip btw from a long ass time ago had to go back that far to find the closest thing to a real perfect frame which shows that it rarely happens)

 

huh, you think this thread doesn't benefit the server? Is that whataboutism? The context makes it seem like you don't care that your comments are not helpful to the current discussion because you think the thread also "doesn't benefit the server"? Weird, because a lot of people seem to think it is.

I do agree the OP is very stubborn and not willing to budge tho XD He needs to learn to accept certain things. But that's the same for many people in the thread.

It's amusing you think making bish in HT easier will make it "impossible to foster the future of players" I don't think i even have to explain why that's wrong.

And on another note, unlike what you think, it's not the 0.1% sweaty elitists that keep the server going, its the 99.9% of the player base that makes the market functional that keeps the server alive.

 

that's true, but on a server where boss clear rate is expected to be near 100%, aren't we expecting near perfection (at least in terms of survival, which is what this thread is about) from all bishops?

 

imo, no. Hosts have the ability to protect their bishops if they choose, by directing runners to start LH and measuring LA/MH cleave damage.

If I know I'm running with a bishop with under 7k HP, I consider it my own personal responsibility as a host to do everything in my power to protect them, and if they die to an early DP, I consider it my own fault.

Similarly, I've been on many 6 man runs with even veteran Bishops who have died, including myself. Not a single one of them ever faced repercussions for their deaths; they were all invited to return for future runs and I still hold all of them in high esteem. In fact, if I were to think of who I would consider the 5 best HT bishops on the server, I have personally seen 4 out of those 5 die on a run I was on, and I still think they're incredible players.

Nobody is expecting 100% perfection. All most players and hosts, including myself, ask is that you try your best and perform to the best of your ability.