Horntail’s Left Head Attack: A Necessary Change for Bishop Survival

I think shared experience and sharing come hand in hand. A lot of this community is based on the continued sharing of common knowledge and understanding of the game, and I think staff have made a conscientious effort to make sure not to erase the vanilla or baseline experience of this game. But as we continue to make changes to improve QOL or make things more inclusive (some of which I agree are good and well-intentioned), there are inevitable erasures of experience that highlight the game. For example, new players will never witness a 6-man bishop accidentally going in as the primary sed target (before sed mules were even a thing) and showing up by maintaining sed timers for both arms to a tee so they could keep themselves safe for the entirety of the run. Even at the time, the concept was a wild, but we were able to experience that and talk about it - not out of curiosity or careful planning but because of a simple mistake (entering early) which turned into an opportunity to shine.

I feel like we as a community have lost a lot of that willingness to make mistakes and feel some of that scuff because to me, while it may feel terrible, it's still a part of the game and overcoming a challenge is part of the experience. I worry that as we continue to make changes to smooth out the path forward, these experiences will cease to exist. I understand new one will come to take their place, but the sentiment has shifted immensely. Back in the day, getting a clear was considered a feat. Now a days, NOT clearing is considered a failure. Maybe this is just a speculation, but I think player dopamine experience has shifted from previously a cautious and hopeful uncertainty for success ("Can we clear? What strategic changes can we make to increase our chances next time? I hope we can clear.") to an almost expected and negative one ("Things are too difficult. There is literally nothing we can do except spend 5m nx and wash harder. We wasted our time attempting this. Maybe staff can change things so things are more inclusive.") and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

As for the brigading, I'm not recounting on a specific event but an overall shift in community sentiment that I pick up from some folk through their (probably unintentiona) snide or underhanded remarks. It could be in jest and it's not a big deal, but the othering effect over a long period of time gets to be wearisome. To mention the quote above "There is nothing we can do except wash harder" is just not true, but recently that sentiment has permeated through the undertones of these conversations -- even in this thread -- and again it feels like those veteran players who chose to carve their own way with long term hyperwashed projects or deeply invested characters - are being called out and almost even blamed for being elitist or gatekeepers trying to prevent change because they're worried about their efforts being invalidated. I know I'm referencing a lot of clauses that you've used but I want to emphasize I'm not pointing any fingers at you specifically - just using them for a lack of better references and I hope I'm conveying my idea properly.

The immediate example that came to mind was that an overwashed bishop would not need to care about dispel even when climbing up top to HS which is where I see most overwashed bishops die to wing slap. There'd be virtually no risk anymore other than forgetting to pot up a bit more and recast MG before iframes go down. But for the newer hp bishops, I think the new found space/safety would simply become occupied with a new type of carelessness. Old players used to tell their buyers or 12 man bishops to spam magic guard when DP timer was up, but then people realized it's actually better to time your MG as your buffs go down, but that seems to not have translated and bishop players are still holding down MG without understanding the why. The allotted safety of iframes on DP would shift typical gameplay for lower HP bishops to gen cast spam with no concerns until they notice their buffs are gone. It just creates space to play without really knowing the why. Actually, I just thought of something -- I think the iframe idea could work if it weren't the typical iframe duration of 3s. If the goal is ultimately to get rid of 'perfect frame' scenario, wouldn't a 1s or 0.5s iframe be enough?

I want to clarify that I'm not super opinionated against the suggestion. I think it does work as a temporary solution, but I'd hope it could be done better to preserve the aforementioned 'shared experience' a bit more.

 

I think I can speak for everyone when I say, we're glad you're also on GMS and not on this server.

 

5.6k / 7k for LH. If I know my Bishop has less than 7k HP, I'm starting LH unless they feel confident otherwise.

 

First, I'm sorry to hear about people making snide/underhanded remarks (idk the specifics). I think our community as a whole could do better about belittling each other, old or new.

Second, I dont think I can reply to all your points but if I dont talk about it I probably more or less agree

Now, as for your example of bishop entering HT first accidentally as SED, I know you cant find an example that 100% fits our discussion, but i feel its disingenuous to use such an example of "triump" when we are talking about mere every day survival of bishops in HT. Bishop surviving in HT is expected; no one is gonna talk about the time I survived near perfect frame in HT. People won't even notice that.

As for your sentiment about people willing to learn etc, it seems odd to me becuase I know many guilds that started 12man runs with mostly noobs and they had to learn together and many of their runs were very much scuffed. In fact just last night I ran 6man HT with 3.4k hp rather inexperienced bishop and NL sed target, and it ended up becoming 3man in the end. To be honest for me 99% of people ignoring advice and simply complaining is on the forum. All it is to say, I think you are being unfair to the new player community and you are generalizing too much about a group of people that are much larger than end game community.

And also, can we please just end this strawman argument of "new players are spoiled"? (But understandable as the OP of this post is very spoiled)

I do agree that if bishops are made safer, than strategies like wyvern shield, mount MG, and a lot of other methods people have figured out will not be needed anymore. I'm sorry you will miss them.

You said that if bishops become safer than new bishops will just let their guard down....but is that so terrible?? Attackers get full iframe duration of safety, why shouldn't bishops? I think your answer to this question has been about shared experiences/efforts put in by previous people. However that sounds to me like "I had to go through unpaid internship so you should too. I learned sooo much from my unpaid internship and made so many connections/had fun!" Maybe I'm being too unfair in this comparison but I hope I get the gist of it through.

Also, you are ignoring selection bias. Of course the people that stuck through fragile bishop are people that enjoyed it and were skilled enough or whatever. Of course, THOSE people can claim to have "enjoyed it." However, I guarantee hundreds of people hated it, and quit in the past.

Will we do something to help these people now instead of ignoring them like in the past?

(I agree 1sec of DP iframe is enough, I just thought it was more elegant solution to give same iframe duration to everyone but I'd be happy with anything tbh. But dont you think it can cause problems becuase bishops cant know whether their current iframe is the short one or long one? So we'd need to give different animation which is also a lot of work and rather...not simple. Maybe there can be a better idea altogether)

 

bishop are the most fun class in HT
bowmasters come in 2nd most fun class at HT.

 

This might actually be why forum tends to draw out a different type of interaction from me than in game or on discord. I use this space more like a public forum that tend to benefit less from echo-chambers and more from contrarian perspectives and deeper lines of questioning. If I spent my time here simply adding my support, I think we'd actually end up learning less. Go through Gurk's graveyard of suggestion threads - or any good suggestion thread that has gotten massive community support but no follow up. The ones that actually impart change in this server are usually the ones that are more controversial.

Newer players that come to complain tend to have an agenda on 'fixing' things that they see as broken. If we only had people here agreeing, the forum would continue to be a ghost town. I don't have anything against new players - I actually try my best to help them as much as I can. But forums shouldn't be the space to be flooded with every new idea or 'fix', so I do my part by meeting their ideas with questions, and I think that can come across as dismissive or elitist. To be honest, I'd rather deal with new player questions or understandings through the game or through discord, which oftentimes leads to a much more amicable experience.

I think it’s important to remember that it’s pretty easy to come up with an idea that might work, but I think it’s better to hash things out through sustained dialogue and questioning in hopes of finding butter solutions.

 

from my experience in frequent 6man HT, having been a 7k+HP 1600TMA+ bishop myself. (retired)
btw, 1600TMA is not necessary at all. BB+GEN works just fine.
I'd argue that when it comes to endgame bossing, you can know all the ins and outs of the technical skills and timing animations for HT but highly suggest you all to rethink your keyboard layout for full utilization of the skills and potting. it will improve your QoL and neutralize your stress in HT as a bishop. If you don't have a comfortable keyboard setting for bossing, you won't be in your sharpest gameplay for HT or any bosses that demand a higher level of attention.

my regular bishop leeching key settings was different from my bossing key settings.

I will post a keyboard setting if you're interested
just let me know, might help you.

 

You're the one that's wrong. You refuse to listen to people's feedback and suggestions. This is far from a "necessary" change. People have been doing HT for years without HP challenges on bishops that didn't HP wash at all. This is 100% a skill issue. I'm not the only one disagreeing with you - just look at your own poll

 

I agree healthy discussion is important. And I am also very sad many many good suggestions go unimplemented.

But let's not pretend the forum will be an echo chamber even if you dont post. You're hardly the contrarian here, infact most people DONT want the change that OP suggested. And let's be real, dismissive/belittling tone is hardly helpful to a healthy discussion. In fact, it only creates more divide.

There has been many people that suggested alternatives, posted dissent, etc in a healthy discussion way.

Also, I must disagree with you that the forum should not be "flooded" with "ideas and fixes". In fact requiring people to only post mainstream ideas where they know most people will agree is what will lead to an echo chamber. Forum should be somewhere we can all share all kinds of ideas.

But I don't think this particular discussion about "health" of forum is fit for this particular thread anyway. I feel like we went on a long tangent. I feel like it would be best to drop this subject, and I'm sorry if I interpreted your words unfairly.

 

How to survive from supposed RNG event with 100% success rate:

1. Know HP thresholds
2. Know the animations
3. Keep track of DP timers
4. Position yourself to be in the right place at the right time (lower platform beneath wings)
5. Jump into wings to take iframes upon DP animation
6. Rebuff MG

 

As an Underwashed Newbie HT BS, I can quite understand the "Perfect Frame" situation where you get absolutely destroyed from a combo, like yes it's soul crushing the moment you watch yourself died in a DP + Left Head Combo...Especially if you go 6 man run and there's no "Safety Net" to help you (i been in a victim for quite sometimes in 12 man runs). But there are times/cases i could have survive a combo from what i can learn but not experience yet which i believe that the "Perfect Frame" can be taken as a challenge to adapt it. Which is why it's best to take it as experience to apply in future runs and try learn from others what to do to help improve the odds, especially in 6 man which i believe it's more vital to learn to survive the perfect frame which i'm not ready for it yet.

(side note: been reading the thread and learned a lot interesting tips and stuff for HT Bishoping, which imma try take it for future runs and adapt it. I do appreciate some knowledgeable explanation happening around here. Lastly, it's important to have fun while learning the curve of horntail run as i don't think everyone is perfect at their role, but trying their best)

 

sorry i just can't help a good meme. Sorry Diamond. Also Diamond, what do you think about DP having iframe (even if its a shorter one) rather than just increasing hp challenge for mages?