HP Washing Optional - Tweaking damage

The immediate problem I can see here is that a low hp character could hypothetically camp like 50hp, take only 50 damage per hit, and only use red potions during a boss run. Which would be kind of strange. You would have to set the system up so that it only puts you to 1hp if you are at max HP and your max HP is less than the natural damage.

However even if you could code that into the game, I don't really think this change is really necessary as it won't really change anything. For most of the bosses in the game, almost everyone at the min level requirement can tank 1 single hit with a combination of very minimal washing(ie no base int) and hp equips (mon, bfc, t10, ellin ring). People usually wash to give themselves some leeway to make mistakes and to save pots during boss runs, being able to tank 1 hit isn't really the issue right now.

 

It doesn't sound like you could camp 50 hp, it sounds like if you have 2,000 hp the max you get hit for is 1,999 damage. So if you have 1900 hp and you get hit it can still do 1,999 and kill you outright. So in order to survive you have to camp full HP all of the time.

Personally I like the idea, it makes it possible to play using a high amount of skill while still coming with a fairly big risk.

But maybe max damage = (total hp - 11) would be better, using booster will take 10 hp off the top and leave you very susceptible to being KO'd. There might be more skills like that too.

 

Honestly, I think the ONLY issue with hp washing is the fact that it is a noob trap. If you don't prepare to gain excess mana your character is stuck forever at low HP once you are high level.

(At high level its hard to level consistently, so mp washing is much, much less viable).

Rather than creating custom boss mechanics, I would rather see a change that make HP washing NOT a noob trap, i.e. something that you can do at any point in your characters progression, be it at lv1 or lv 200.

The idea that I have to fix this is to standardize "fresh AP" and AP reset AP. Currently, AP reset ap (which is what happens when you wash using an ap reset over using fresh level up AP) has a few disadvantages.

1) You always gain the min amount of HP for some classes (and it does not trigger hp increase passives for warriors and brawlers)
2) You do not gain the benefit from mp washing with ap reset ap (if you try to increase your mp with an ap reset, mages don't gain their extra mp from their passive and every class doesn't gain the extra INT/10 MP.

The change I would suggest is to make Ap reset AP work exactly the same as Fresh AP.

This means that a high level character that did not wash early on can still do so by resetting their stat into INT and then MP washing using an AP reset. They will gain extra MP based on their base int, which they can then use to hp wash.

Of course this means that new players who did not plan out their hp wash are a disadvantage compared to other players who washed in the beginning (they don't gain the benefit of gaining extra MP from leveling up with base INT and must spend EXTRA ap resets to increase their int which would have been avoided with proper planning).

However, they are not screwed to the point where they need to remake their character. They Just need to spend extra vote nx on HP washing compared to people who planned it out from the beginning. The important thing is, however, that new players can still hp wash without preplanning their character.

 

I don't think changing AP resets to have them operate the same way whether it's fresh AP or Reset AP will have a positive effect on the long-term health of the game. If I'm interpreting it right then it would mean that it's possible to continuously wash forever, regardless of level, and the only stipulation is how much NX a person is willing to put into a character. It would help new players, but at the same time it would make it possible for established players to get 18k base HP.

With that the divide between new players and old players becomes more apparent. I'm sure there are quite a few people who have saved up 500k+ vote cash on their attacker by this time. They could theoretically keep saving NX until they get to the point where they can reset 200+ into int(calculations would probably be done to find the most efficient value for int), reset a ton of ap into mp, reset it back out of mp into hp until [minimum-mp + ap-reset-mp-loss * ap-in-hp-mp < current-mp] and then reset the rest of the mp out into base stat, finally resetting the int out back to the base stat. If they already have a decent stack of NX then they immediately have an advantage over someone just starting the process.

Should players who have saved up a metric ton of NX be able to do that? Does it really make newer players feel any better knowing that it took a player multiple years in order to get that boost of HP? I don't think it would make unwashed people feel any better. It's not skill based. It's not anything within the players control. Those unwashed people will continue to feel inferior only based on the fact that they haven't been around for a few years like some people have. That's why I don't think it's the right solution. While it would benefit unwashed people, I can see it as a bigger benefit to people who are already established. I think that's the major issue with most solutions to HP washing, it doesn't help the noobs as much as it helps the old players, so while the average HP goes up across the board it's a noticeably higher increase in the committed players. It still leaves a gap. It still leaves envy.

That's why I really like Tsuki's idea. It doesn't benefit old, highly washed players at all. It doesn't lock the solution behind years of NX. It's based entirely on a user's attentiveness and skill, and I think that's something a player could take pride in.

 

You are correct that established players could get more HP. However, I believe you are GROSSLY underestimating the amount of nx required for established players to gain significant HP.

The most efficient base int would vary with your HP goal, but to be honest, if you are going for a gain of 10k or so HP I think that what you said, 200 base int would pretty much be the minimum.

An established character probably doesn't have base int and is high level. They need to spend 196 ap resets resetting into base int. Then, they need to spend X resets on mp washing, and then another Y resets on HP washing.

If an established ranged character is washed to 10k (which is VERY, VERY high), they would need 444 more washes to reach 18k. So, basically we are talking the following:

196 ap resets to reset into base int
266 ap resets to mp wash to gain enough mp to for 444 washes (for archer / thief, its more for corsairs)
444 ap resets to wash and gain 8k hp
196 ap resets to reset into base stat

Thats 1102 ap resets to gain 8k HP.

Thats 3,416,200 nx.

Thats 569 days of voting with a 6k vote streak.

Hell, if I had that much nx I could make a ranged character from scratch and probably wash to higher than 18k.

Also at the end of the day this isn't about making unwashed players FEEL better, its about giving them options to do end game content without remaking their unplanned characters.

Also if I am a new player and I am envious about an established players HP, is it okay for me to be envious about everything else they have? Including their perfect weapons, high level, and fourth job buff mules?

 

Unfortunately I think it is too late to make changes to HP Washing, and the only thing we can hope for now are new HP Items that are good enough to make washing truly optional.

Also, agree with Akash: Washing is a noob trap and it is the worst part about it. If you level up a lot without knowing what washing is, your character gets pretty much unfixable and either you make a new one, or just stop leveling up for months while you reset stats into INT, or just rely on HP items.

 

So what are the unwashed players going to do with this new AP reset system? They still have to get a lot of int to MP wash as their MP is pretty close to the minimum. If a highly washed character would rather restart than do it then why should an unwashed player even bother with it?

That's one way to do the numbers, but it's hard to say if that'll be the case for most high levels. It's easy to paint almost any picture. There are some people who keep some base int until 170+ and beyond. 18k hp is just if they want to be ridiculous, they could realistically aim for 15k and never have any troubles again. Let's say they're level 180. 4k minimum HP for NL/BM plus they put in 120 int in and used ~60 int in equipment for most of their journey. So for the sake of simplicity let's say they've averaged around 12 extra mp per level for 180 levels, sticking to the low end because early levels tend to have less and whatnot. On average that gives around 22 extra hp per level for a total of ~4k more hp. They went for a tier 10 ring, MoN, Blackfist Cloak, scrolled a single pet equip for 130 hp, and have the Ellin Ring, giving them a total of ~1800 hp from equips. They washed decently, got all of the right equips, and now they have close to 10k HP at minimum.

Now let's get that character to 15k HP, making them an unkillable monster for pretty well any boss. They already have 120 int, so that saves some resets.

80 more resets to get to 200 int
166 resets to MP wash
277 resets to get rid of all ap in hp/mp
196 resets to go to 4 int

719 resets give or take, 835 if they start with 4 int. Now it's only about 2.23 million nx. That's about 1 year. Tack on another 2 months if they start at 4 int.

Should players be allowed to gain 5,000 hp by simply voting for about 12-15 months? If they have a large chunk of nx saved up they can do it before the year is over. They can also hold out for longer in order to hit the cap of HP, but at a certain point it seems excessive. In a matter of a few hours a player could instantly gain thousands of HP, and suffer no disadvantages for it. This would be doable on a completely playable character that isn't left out of any key content already.

For an unwashed player, what do they do in the meantime? They can't really boss with their 5-6k hp, and it'll take them a year to gather the nx to wash this method. They either have to play a difference character or simply not play the content they want to play because once again, in order to do things efficiently you'd do all of this at once, maybe resetting into int early so the levels you do get give more.

The only real difference between an unwashed player doing this theoretical method and a washed player doing it is that the washed character is already good to play, while the unwashed character is still locked out of content for months to years. And while they're voting to fix their character the washed player continues to suck every advantage they can out, making 12-15k hp a new bar to be reached for the average established player.

 

If a player can only drop to 1 hp then what’s the point in drks? Why take drk over another attacker when hp/hb is irrelevant to surviving? I think there are solutions to hp washing but this isn’t one I agree with.

Edit: to add my own suggestion I think one solution is to make it so there’s a damage reduction for being higher level than the mob/boss. If I’m 10 levels above the mob that should give a benefit. This would help people not washing because you could still boss it’ll just be at a later level. Another solution could be to increase the benefits from defense. These are the ways I’d rather “fix” hp washing because it benefits everybody including drk (less damage taken = easier to zerk). I think a lot of solutions people propose only boost hp which is useful but doesn’t benefit drk that much while also making hb less valuable.

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree

This would devalue so many defensive resources in the game. DrKs would become simply worse than having an extra DPS in your party if HB isn't needed to survive. Bishops wouldn't need to care about their MP provided they're spamming heal constantly (incidentally, it would actually encourage HP washing bishops, I think) because they'd no longer have a need for magic guard. Having more HP could potentially be detrimental because your pots are no longer full-healing you.

I think I prefer akashsky's solution because it addresses the actual issue, as he put it: that hp washing is a "noob trap". I do think there are better ways to get around it being a noob trap, though, if I'm being honest, and making changes to the existing mechanics of it is likely to upset some more veteran players.

The simplest solution I can think of off the top of my head is to just have an NPC on Maple Island who explains it and then another in Lith Harbour. These NPCs could then quiz you about it, too, and give exp for you getting the right answers. This is how Neckson combated people making other "noob mistakes" like becoming a mage at level 10, people not having enough of any given stat to make the first job advancement and people wasting hours not knowing where to go to become their preferred job. It would also speed up Maple Island a bit, which is a side benefit I'd like (I find Maple Island to be pretty tedious).

 

there could be few fixes needed for this, like min hp required, or different classes get different formulas..

but anyway i think this change might be too much.it just look little weird to me. as now the game is simple. you get hit you lose hp.

i think the solution need to come from inside the game. it can be in the form of hp gear, skills or defense formula(defense is changing the rules too but doent change the mechanics if you get what i mean)...

i made the same suggestion on kimberly official hp wash solutions post. but she didnt take it. i think its because she want to keep it as close as she can to the original. and/or because it might scare new players away when they see it. because hp wash wasnt part of the old maple story and they wont understand it. anyway i support this idea. its better they get the "shock" at low level than at end game when you cant do anything about it.

 

The damage dealt to your character is all hard coded into client, thus this would not be possible.