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HP Washing Solution

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by icarian, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    What do you not understand about "Zakum does not require washing at all"?
     
  2. Motto
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    Motto Skelegon

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    The real implication of how much I need to level to even try that.
    But yeah, not gonna bother do a NL for bossing... too much funding for alpha male dmg.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. ahotbanana
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    ahotbanana Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    An NL will have enough HP for zakum (with HB) by like level 80 (depending on how lucky you get with natural HP gain from leveling)
    For reference, my FM mule is a level 76 chief bandit with 2134 HP. This is without washing at all. With HB, he'd have 3414HP, which is enough for an NL at zakum.
     
  4. Breaklimits
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    Breaklimits King Slime

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    What class and what lvl is your goal to start bossing cause its not needed to wash.
    I did horntail 11 years ago on 152 nightlord with 5k hp +hb tho but it was doable
     
  5. DarkSuga
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    DarkSuga Mano

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    Bowman, Beginner
    I'm an archer planning to advance as bowmaster. Considering archers are a class that naturally have less HP, welp.

    I wouldn't have picked archer if I knew about all this beforehand, I would have picked a class that had more HP instead like a warrior or something.
     
  6. Hyoon
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    Hyoon Zakum Retired Staff

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    I still think you're misinformed, and don't understand the extent of free hp content that legends has.

    You will still be able to boss everything even with minimalistic washing.
     
  7. ahotbanana
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    ahotbanana Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    I think Hyoon is right and you might be a little misinformed. I honestly don't blame you; it took me quite a long time to get my head round the whole thing and really understand what is and isn't necessary. There's a lot of conflicting information out there, largely because a lot of it comes from legit pre-big bang maple around 11 years ago and other private servers that handle things differently to MapleLegends.

    Bowmen have the same HP and MP formulae as a thief, which is nice because it means I've already done all this research and math for myself. While washing will definitely make life a lot easier, and make you no longer reliant on Hyper Body, it shouldn't be necessary with all the extra HP you can get by other means on this server. By level 180, your minimum HP (which is super unlikely to have - you'd need to literally get the lowest possible HP increase each level up) will be 3,978. With a tier 10 monster book ring, that will be 4,978, which will bring you to 7,964 (or 7,965, depending on how rounding works with HB), which is enough for Horntail.

    Now of course, it does mean you'll need to wait an extra 20 levels, and farming all the cards for the monster ring is no small task, but:
    1) this is assuming the absolute worst case scenario. You'll likely have enough HP with a monster ring earlier than this.
    2) monster ring isn't the only way to increase your HP on this server. There are pet HP scrolls and you could even sacrifice a bit of damage for other HP scrolled equips; you'll be bringing Sharp Eyes to the group which can compensate quite a bit for any shortfallings you have when it comes to damage.
    3) this is assuming you literally never wash at all. Similarly to HP, your MP can naturally increase above its minimum and give you some "free" washes. Additionally, as you level up, you could invest in some int gear or put some points into your int when it will make less of a difference to your damage output and begin washing later.

    Most people wash to avoid needing to rely on Hyper Body (or because they've been misinformed and think they need to). This does come with significant advantages: you don't need to have a DrK in your party to do end-game content, making you much more flexible and if you have a DrK and they die, you aren't just screwed. That isn't to say it's 100% necessary, though. If having to deal with washing early on is going to ruin the experience for you, you really don't need to do it. You'll just need to be prepared for the game to be a bit more challenging later on.
     
  8. Diego
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    Diego Capt. Latanica

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    Bossing is nothing but drama anyways
     
  9. redblueblur
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    redblueblur Mr. Anchor

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    1. can we get some statistics of player's lvl in the server before we throw practical values into calculations?
    • I see posts being made implying "oh, as a new player, by lvl 160 or 180 on ranged class w hp gears/rings, with/without hp washing...u shld be good to go for boss runs (ht/ future PinkBean)"
      • are there really a handful of new players who went ranged and achieved that specified level? If so, cool lets proceed and tunnel down this bit of information to newcomers/existing playerbase for the community to at least plan for the foreseeable and achievable future.
    2. Possibilities on the solution part
    • With New Bosses comes great Fear
    (of not being able to survive a 1 hit, not 1/1 hp/mp skill but the common boss hits)
    • Parameters: " Don't let existing players who've voted for months~years worth of NX to go to waste (most importantly, but tough nonetheless, seeing this reason pop up often in posts here) ".
      • really, i feel that many possibilities to make/improve on the range of which the server being HP optional (coverage for more bosses w/o hp wash req) has been shot down simply because of this reason.
      • Also, I've just came bak from an approx 1yr break and noticed (not just me, lpqers in general as well) that LPQ Bonus Stage NX rewards (nerfed?) weren't as what they were before i took a break from ML. As a future NL, I vote and have in the past, done LPQs on a daily basis to trade off my time spent doing LPQ (which includes: putting up with various kinds of players situation, downtime from waiting for a Party to be formed and what nots)
        • Variables per LPQ round:
          • Duration per LPQ (averages 20mins - worse end), no changes as based on players
          • NX drops per round: 1year ago (averages 400 to 600+)
            • 1hr of LPQ = 3 rounds (provided all members stay & continue) = Avg 1,200 to 1,800 NX
    • NX drops per round: now (averages 0 to 100+)
      • 1hr of LPQ = 3 rounds (provided all members stay & continue) = Avg 0 to 300 NX
      • "what... wait 3 rounds and u get 0 NX drops? NANI?!"
        • yes, it happens more often than usual now, apparently.
    • If so, why change matters like LPQ (nx related) to only make it harder for us to achieve our NX goals?
    • Knowing now that the popular bosses like Zak and HT have a specific amount of HP required to survive (not bringing in Toad into the equation - cuz its specially intended for melee classes and you'd have to consider the almost majority of ranged classes that want to experience this boss as well). For future bosses like Pink Bean that may be released, mainly the ranged community players may be (highly likely) concerned that their current/planned HP will not be sufficient to survive a 1 hit from Pink Bean and would've already reached a Mid-high level, say 155 and have their base INT reset back to 4 already. To go through 1 round of hell (hp/mp wash) is enough, lets not talk about a 2nd round.
    • What say for [Future Bosses expansion], if any player with HP below the highest/Lowest damage dealt by the [Future Boss] be automatically given a total HP of xx,xxx (highest/Lowest damage inflicted + 500hp, roughly to account for the varying defenses different players have) only during the specified Future Boss map.
      • Here, players when faced w a cloud of uncertainties of future bosses to really have an optional HP washing scenario - to be given a chance to at least experience a full Boss run with minimal temporary HP buffs given only for this specified Future Boss duration. This doesnt automatically give 'these players' an edge above the rest, as getting damaged the on the 1st hit would still require them to pot in order to survive the next hit and also does not change the fact that 1/1 Hp/Mp skill by bosses will still kill these players if they didn't pot.
    The crowd has spoken, we now cannot simply shoot down creative possibilities with just a mere reason of to not anger the Old players who've been performing hp/mp washes. Yes, they have placed much valuable time into the game, but im sure they'd like to see fresh newcomers joining the server and becoming part of their future guild mates and not quit halfway - only to realize they had missed a window of opportunity (high lvled, wants to boss, but lacks hp, option to remake character,thus lacks motivation to continue gameplay).

    There will always be senior/older players, be it those of whom have joined since Beta or those of whom join now and become senior in 1 years time.

    Also, i would like to thank each individuals that bravely partook and shared their valuable inputs.​
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Dvah
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    Dvah Pac Pinky

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    Yes and people will quit if it will happen

    The only option to get 30k NL and (yes I’m saying NL because that what the most of you want),is to add 600int

    Until 70 add only int from 71 to 120
    Add 5points into MP and wash back to int

    at 150 you’ll get 30k hp enjoy,or just be an Warrior fun plus ez early bf
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  11. ahotbanana
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    ahotbanana Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    These stats are available. You can see them by looking on the rankings page (that page doesn't include people who have been banned but I can't imagine more than a handful of people get to 180+ and then do anything that would get them permabanned).
    To save you time:
    There are 238 characters on the server that are 180+ currently.
    128 of those are mages, who don't need to HP wash at all. That's more than half.
    Thief + bowman, there are 50 characters on the server. (which annoyingly includes a bunch of shadowers - I counted 12, so took 12 off of 62 to arrive at 50. I may have miscounted by 1 or 2 in either direction, though, as I went through them quite quickly)
    There are 2 corsairs 180+
    That comes to a total of 52 ranged characters that have made it to 180 or higher.

    I also know for a fact that some people own more than one 180+ character. KurayamiLove and Amatista are the same person, for example.

    For reference, there are 4283 120+ characters on the server at the time of writing this

    I don't really see what this changes, though, if I'm honest. Whilst not many people reach this level, I don't see many people not planning for this level. In a game that is basically all about optimisation, it makes no sense not to.

    No crowd has spoken. This isn't even close to unanimous in either direction.
    The thing is that a lot of the reason people play on this server and other servers like it is because the original MapleStory made drastic changes like this which devalued the achievements of veteran players. New players want HP washing removed because it's a lot of work and players who have already washed don't want it removed because they've put in a lot of work and don't want that work devalued. Doing something to make HP washing less necessary kind of goes against the point of the server. In this light, however, I completely agree with what you're implying by saying:
    Given that the server has very established HP goals, adding new content with significantly higher requirements would alienate these veteran players in the same way that most proposed "solutions" to HP washing would. I don't like solutions like the one you've proposed to this, though. Making bosses do different damage based on how much HP you have would mean that anyone who does have enough HP to survive the bigger hits has no advantage for their extra HP, again devaluing their achievement. A better solution would be to nerf PB's damage to a similar level to Horntail. It could maybe be slightly higher given it's intended to be fought at higher levels.

    Would also like to point out that washing isn't as hellish as people make it out to be. Obviously this depends on how hard you're washing and how funded you are, but the higher level you are, the less of a difference your base int is going to make. As you level up, you get more and more damage from your gear and your base stats become less and less important. You also get more AP to spend the higher level you are, so 120 base int at level 130 makes much less of a difference than 120 base int at level 30.

    My experience when making my NL was that each time I hit a level for a new equip (20 for my bathrobe, 35 for maple claw etc), leveling became significantly easier. By level 50 or so, I wasn't really noticing that my base int was holding back my damage. Obviously, this was with significant funding, but at the same time I was actually washing harder than I needed to in order to try and give myself some room to fuck up. My goal was HT level HP by level 120, which I managed. Even with this, the character was playable from around level 20ish. My damage was low but leveling is so fast at those levels anyway that it didn't really matter.

    This isn't to say it's trivial or can reasonably be done without funding, but it's nowhere near as bad as people think it is and you don't need to leech all the way to 120 or anything silly like that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. redblueblur
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    redblueblur Mr. Anchor

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    Again, this applies only to FUTURE BOSSES like Pink Bean. I don't think this is really much of a drastic change, allowing players to fully enjoy all main bosses in game content. I used to know a friend of mine that enjoyed the game by just interacting with the community in the FM (fm hoeing) and grinding (lvl17x), but when his sense of enjoyment changed towards the bossing realm, he had to recreate the same character in order to do bossing and eventually quit in the end due to needing to wait and vote for over 8 months to be bossing ready.

    Let's change this now and allow people to enter bossing maps with the classes they like to use.

    hmm, my intensions for the solution did not have anything to do with "bosses doing diff dmg based on how much hp" and it also doesn't make sense?

    Yes i agree that those of whom have washed may feel a lack of advantage rather than "no advantage", this idea or future ideas would be needed to be worked on and further refined. I'm just merely throwing this out there to garner a chain of thoughts through people's experience and expertise, also won't it be nice to be able to do guild runs with your newcomer/community who want to help out and actually help gain more dps for runs.

    I'm glad you pointed this out, so maybe we could add in a formula to detect a player's 1 to 2 shot survivability (washed additional HP) and add it with the "given minimal HP to survive 1 shot from Future boss".
    Example: If PB were to hit (highest) an average Joe for 12,000 hp.
    • For those HP below the 1 shot damage [example with 10,000hp]
      • (current HP) + (given additional HP) = able to survive 1 shot with spare hp of 100 (rough est)
      • 10,000 + 2,001
        • So even if a player has HP washed till 10,000hp, they'd not be able to survive 1 shot from new bosses and to release them of their frustration, they'd still be able to benefit from this.
    • For those HP above the 1 shot damage [example with 12,001hp]
      • (1 hp) + (average given HP to Party Member w hp under 1 shot damage)
        "total given additional HP to Party Member under 1 shot damage / # of players given HP in Party"
      • 1 + (5,000/5) --> 1 + 1,000
        • I can't really figure out a good compensation to people who've washed above the 1shot survivability range. Thought of giving them 1) an increase of HP capacity based on avg hp given per squad/party but it may lead to an exploit in future boss runs.
        • Though that giving benefits to washed players who're able to survive 1 shot by giving them an hp rebate after the 1/1 hp/mp skill by bosses or from reflect skills.
    Yes nerf PB's damage sounds good, but by how much?
    What if players (Non Washers and those Washed: above 180 or even 200) have only/washed hp below the required HP for this new boss and although w HP gear, still not able to survive?
     
  13. ahotbanana
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    ahotbanana Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    Going to have to reply a bit out of order here.

    Sorry, I misread what you said the first time. The thing is, though, your proposed solution still normalises the HP of the group, meaning that people who have washed more won't get any real advantage for it. Using your system, say we have two Nightlords doing the run. One of them has 10,000hp and the other has 4,000. The one who washed to 10k will get no advantage over the one who washed to 4k, meaning all of that washing was ultimately wasted, except for being able to fight an inferior boss as well as Pink Bean.

    The advantage you do give to people who've washed enough for the boss would be super abusable, too. You could literally wash a character the wrong way (put a point into MP and take it out of HP) as a character to go into the boss fight to boost the average HP gain that people above the damage threshold get.

    This system also gives a pretty big disadvantage to anyone who washes really close to, but not quite up to, the amount of HP they'd need for the boss.

    Using your system, you'd also get no benefit if you'd washed up to 30k, which a LOT of warriors do. Unless you're including the following:

    but this would require reprogramming the client and server at their core, something that the GMs tend to avoid doing. Also, it fundamentally changes game mechanics which isn't really something that you want on a nostalgic server.

    That still devalues the HP washing they've done. Newer, stronger, bosses will be yielding higher rewards and be more desirable to fight. Who would bother to wash for horntail any more if you can fight pinkbean and get much better rewards without washing at all? I know I wouldn't have bothered to anywhere close to as hard as I did.

    I literally answered this is the bit you quoted. "To a similar level to Horntail. It could maybe be slightly higher given it's intended to be fought at higher levels."
    Put more plainly: Horntail is a level 160 boss who requires 7.9k HP to survive. The minimum HP increase for a bowman or a thief from 160-180 is 400, so it could do 8.3k damage.

    Alternatively, you could just have some other way to avoid the damage from Pink Bean. Allegedly, if you have a warrior aggro it from the other side to the ranged characters, it will never do its huge damage attacks on the ranged characters. Assuming this works, it won't even be a problem to begin with.
     
  14. Precel
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    Precel Zakum Retired Staff

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    We are very carefully testing Pink Bean's balance, with inputs from Balance Team (QA) including high level & long-time community member. Of course we're not adjusting the balance entirely based on the inputs from Balance Team, but we are investigating from both staff and player perspective.

    We will also be observing Pink Bean after it releases, to further adjust balance so that it's beatable, albeit at high cost.

    I personally don't like normalizing HP not because of HP washing but because it creates huge imbalance.

    For example, different classes have different HP ratio to fit their characteristics but if we normalize HP, certain classes will be heavily buffed while others be heavily nerfed (or have no point of bringing them to the party). I understand HP washing already impacts this balance but I don't think solution should be boss specific.

    Another reason is because currently all aspects of MapleLegends is balanced based on max HP. Specifically, and monsterbook rings would be devalued and will need reevaluation if HP was normalized.

    I'm not a big fan of raising max HP (temporary or permanent) either for similar reasons. Also feels like Big Bang kind of thing.
     
  15. Lidas
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    Lidas Mixed Golem

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    How about hp washers will be able to take almost all the attacks(exept the ones that melee classes take). And non washers will have to dodge all the attacks. Though Im not sure how many attacks pb got or if its possible.

    Or if you want everyone to dodge (more fun and balanced in my opinion) the hits you can dodge are 1 hit ko. Washers will still keep the advantage on other bosses(3 hits or more ko on ht for example).

    So without tuching hp you keep hp wash optional..
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Precel
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    Precel Zakum Retired Staff

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    We are exploring how easy or hard it is to dodge pink bean attacks, but it is possible.
     
  17. redblueblur
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    redblueblur Mr. Anchor

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    YES, i totally agree with this. Theres 1 thing the current maple got it right for bossing, "Strategy Mechanics"; instead of mindlessly tanking dmg, players had to look out for special moves by bosses to avoid getting 100% killed by their special moves which is challenging and yet interesting.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. ahotbanana
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    ahotbanana Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    I also have to agree there, to be honest. Dodgable attacks makes the fight more engaging and more fun. I am a little apprehensive about dodging attacks for more than an hour, though. One mistake killing you on a more than one hour run could be horrific.
     
  19. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    That's why you need some WHEELS OF DESTINYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. redblueblur
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    redblueblur Mr. Anchor

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    Thank you for your reply.

    - But however maybe could u enlightened me/lpqers if LPQ bonus stage nx rewards were nerfed or changed in anyway since 2018 till Present?
    - If so, why?
     

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