1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

HT timer discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Selquin, May 2, 2019.

  1. Selquin
    Offline

    Selquin Headless Horseman

    732
    265
    376
    May 28, 2018
    9:08 AM
    Serperior
    Bowmaster, Night Lord, Buccaneer
    200
    Pasta
    As you all know, about 2 months ago the timer for HT was changed from an essentially irrelevant 12 hours to semi-restrictive 2 hours. This was a fairly controversial change that sparked quite a bit of discussion at the time. I feel like at the time there was a lot of panicking and nobody really knew exactly how the timer change would play out. However, now that its been a good 2 months and we have all gotten a chance to see the consequences, I think its worth discussing this topic again. I will open by giving my thoughts on the matter.

    Initially I held the opinion that the timer change was not that big of a deal and would have very influence on HT runs. I now hold the opinion that the timer change is an overall negative update.

    I believe the intent of the update was to make HT harder and encourage more 2 party runs. However I think the only significant consequence of the timer change was that it made HT runs more selective.

    Despite the harsher timer restriction, there are more 6man runs that ever before. In fact there are almost no 12man groups running HT anymore. The reason for this is that the 2 hour timer isn't actually a very big obstacle for people who regularly run 6mans, since 6man parties are usually strong enough to clear in less than 2 hours anyways. Furthermore organizing 12man runs is quite a bit more difficult than 6man runs, and the reward from a 12man is significantly worse than a 6man. Aside from a few altruistic saints who go out of there way to host 12mans to help their lower level friends, there is really no reason to expect any experienced player to host 12man runs. Unless huge changes are made to HT, 6man runs will become the norm henceforth.

    Once we establish that the timer does very little to encourage 12man runs, it is clear than the timer change does nothing but make existing 6man parties more selective. While I did say that most 6man parties finish in less than 2 hours normally, because of dcs/unexpected deaths most parties dont want to finish with 5mins left. This encourages people to recruit stronger people so that the party can finish with some time to spare in case something goes wrong.

    The consequence of this increased selectivity is that HT has become less accessible to lower level players. In the past a new lvl 155 attacker could pretty easily find a 12man run to join, but due to the general population getting stronger only 6man runs exist. However because they are too weak and the 2 hour timer encourages stronger parties it becomes very hard for a new player to join any HT runs at all. Furthermore, its not only low level players that get affected, people playing non-optimal dpm classes also feel burden of this increased selectivity.

    I will end by noting one arguably positive effect of the timer change. Although the timer change does little to discourage 6man runs, it does however heavily discourage 3-4man runs. In past there were a handful of very strong attackers who brought their own mules and regularly ran HT with 3-5 people, which obviously drove book prices into the ground. The fact that people can no longer do this probably contributed to some of the book prices recovering a bit in the past 2 months.

    This is pretty much all I have to say about the timer change, let me know if agree with my observations/claims.
     
    • Agree x 20
    • Informative x 3
    • Like x 2
    • Funny x 1
    • Great Work x 1
  2. Fishy
    Offline

    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

    924
    304
    403
    Apr 8, 2017
    Male
    8:08 AM
    Eiji
    Dark Knight
    200
    Beaters
    Its difficult trying to find enough people for 2 party runs, and when it does happen its a good time, but I feel extremely bad, when people are picked due to "low level" , because we dont want to fail a run. It sucks having to "pick people and excluding other people , so people get discouraged and never want to run. We've tried it before, but having 4 lvl 160s and 1 lvl 200 , you cannot clear a 6man run, BUT they want to run 6 mans, because it gets the MOST EXP. The only way for them to join 6man runs, is to basically get carried and level that way, and thats no fun at all.

    Also, when DCs happen we kindve get screwed over and the run becomes a "failed run" , many resources are wasted and especially time. It sucks because its not our fault the DCs happen :/

    I strongly agree on the above topics made by Skarmory, it leaves alot of people out and can be stressful and discouraging due unfortunate events.
    (I thought it was a good idea at first, but its unhealthy and discouraging for new HT runners who just want to run with their guild/frineds)
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. Oradious
    Offline

    Oradious Mr. Anchor

    295
    102
    256
    Aug 28, 2018
    Male
    11:08 PM
    Oradious
    F/P Arch Mage, Gunslinger, Buccaneer
    200
    Pasta
    Shads PEPEGA
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  4. akashsky
    Offline

    akashsky Horntail

    2,034
    851
    495
    Jun 10, 2017
    Male
    United States
    8:08 AM
    Disparity
    Corsair
    200
    Pasta
    So what I get from this is that the change impacts you if you want to do 6 man runs.

    But, if you want to do 12 man runs how does changing the timer back to 12 hours help them at all?

    Won't people still not do 12 man runs because it gives "less exp" and "less mesos"?

    So then isn't the core problem that we need to fix is that we need to make larger boss raids more rewarding?

    That being said I do agree with a 12 hour timer revert. Maybe someone will let my 160 corsair join a HT run then.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  5. OP
    OP
    Selquin
    Offline

    Selquin Headless Horseman

    732
    265
    376
    May 28, 2018
    9:08 AM
    Serperior
    Bowmaster, Night Lord, Buccaneer
    200
    Pasta
    To clarify, my position is that 12man will be rare no matter what happens to the timer, 6mans will be the new meta and there is not much we can do about it save for drastic changes. However, raising the timer lessens the demand for strong attackers in 6man runs, thereby making it easy for newer/weaker people to join runs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. Fishy
    Offline

    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

    924
    304
    403
    Apr 8, 2017
    Male
    8:08 AM
    Eiji
    Dark Knight
    200
    Beaters
    the amount of ppl running will remain the same, UNLESS some people host 12 mans run ( 90% of HT runners do not and they have their own squad they pick from to run runs). The issue is being picked on runs and not beeing picked, because if you are too low level, the run will fail, so you'll never be picked for a 6man. Yes, 12 mans are more fun because more friends, but the incentive isnt as good as 6mans; in which most people want to go on, but now, you cant just sign up for 6mans. You gotta be asked, or its the same people running over and over and over again. (which has been happening)
     
  7. Rockler
    Offline

    Rockler Mixed Golem

    164
    68
    161
    Jan 8, 2016
    Male
    Sweden
    4:08 PM
    Nude
    Night Lord
    200
    Scamure
    Make it 1hour timer so u need more then 6ppl :)
     
    • Like Like x 8
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  8. Hyoon
    Offline

    Hyoon Zakum Retired Staff

    1,384
    691
    465
    Dec 1, 2015
    11:08 AM
    I believe the issue on that is also that people are being over picky on how many apples they use.
    NLs used to get easily 3 apples a run (Not uncommon), but most runs I see most people apple once then go either stew or even party bear the rest of the run.
    I understand this as being a way to profit the most.
    I rarely see 1 hour or faster runs anymore.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. ShadowRealm
    Offline

    ShadowRealm Chronos

    81
    29
    93
    Jun 18, 2018
    8:08 AM
    Shadower
    275
    Definitely agree. Its just that alot of people are really high level now and now with op atk cape/socks weapons. Timer didnt change much but 6 mans are more easier to form than 12 mans because less people to recruit and many strong people in the server which it’s preferred to run 6 mans.

    With the two hour timer for horntail, 6 man ht are now super selective. Some of the reasons are runners wants to min max atk pots as much as possible, classes with low dpm/decent gear can easily fail runs due to the time limit especially a class that can cleave mobs and not on 1v1.

    Nobody runs 12 mans since getting 11 people is hard but the most challenging part is finding 2 bishops is tough (1 for each party). yet finding 1 bishop is already tough. even though 12 mans are almost guarantee ht clear since people can die / dc and won't change the outcome of run but the payoff (exp/drops) is bad. With 6 good people, whats the point of 12 mans if your elite 6 can clear the same time as 12 new ht runners and you are able to get 6 fewer people in your run (This means 1 less bishop). Of course its better to 6 man than 12 man. The payoff is huge with 6 mans (Xp/mesos) The existence of many 6 man runs increases the barrier entry for ht runners more and more. People have perfect weapons, 10+ atk capes, 10+ atk socks and if they wanna run, they going to have to be as strong as that or a little less to experience ht and even soon pink bean boss run as well. 6 mans are easier to make because you don’t need to bring as many people for runs and they can just ask their frequent partners making 6 man runs feasible.

    The timer comes into play is where parties have to become selective in 6 man runs. With 2 hours, theres no room for error to form a group of 6 with any classes. The most impacted class right now is a cleaver: Warriors and shadowers.

    If your a cleaver just wants to join ht for 6 man, the chance they get in runs is very low. Cleavers are not great for single target dpm which is crucial for some ht parts. Should you have more cleavers than ranged, there may not be a chance to clear ht on time since cleavers worst moments are pre head and the last 2 heads (left/mid head) which gives them alot of trouble due to cleavers only able to hit 1 thing unlike main body where they can hit their max (3 or 4 mobs). In 6 mans (to slay horntail in 2 hours), the ideal party layout (Assuming everyone gear is average) is usually 1 se 2 ranged 1 hb 1 bishop 1 (any) The need of 3 ranged is to clear preheads faster and main body. Which in a 6 man there are more ranged than cleavers. 1 cleaver must be a drk for hb for all ranged attackers to survive through attacks so there is only 1 spot for anybody which is usually a cleaver to traverse through the main body alot easier. Because there are alot of cleavers than ranged in the game(since there are not much hp washing required) and only 1 spot for them it makes cleavers joining runs super difficult. For cleavers, there is high competition for that spot which is where hosters can simply select their favorite cleaver easy peasy instead of someone else.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 2
  10. postcard
    Offline

    postcard Selkie Jr.

    206
    96
    215
    Aug 17, 2018
    8:08 AM
    Postcard
    Bowmaster
    Vivid
    I agree with Skar's points, and I just wanted to add two cents in in favour of extending the timer. Maybe not back to twelve hours, but to three or four hours.

    I've run both 6 man and 12 man HTs before and after the timer was changed. Following the timer change, trying to put together a 6 man can potentially end in fiasco. Like Skar said, organising a 6 man has become a much more selective process and people will favour bringing certain classes over the other, as well as preference skewing towards higher level players. So lower level players, some cleavers, heavy washers, are shunned from these runs.

    It also makes it difficult for a group of players who are freshly 155 or lower level or less funded to do a 6 man. You can argue that newer players can simply organise a 12 man instead, but as someone who has organised 12 man HT runs before, it is chaotic, hectic, and often a headache trying to herd twelve people into HT. 6 man parties are just easier to get together. With an extended timer, at least a lower level or less optimal 6 man party would have a chance at completing HT for that sweet, sweet HT exp.

    Plus, if people do want to do 12 man runs, a little bit more time gives lower level/less experienced/anyone really players a bit of leeway when it comes to the general fuckery that accompanies a big PQ run. Like if someone DCs, if someone dies and there's a bug, if there's a need to party swap, etc -- or more likely, if someone decides to take a ten minute bathroom break in between preheads. (SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO PEE.)

    I'm not going to speak to the possible book market ramifications of extending the timer, I don't think I'm fully qualified to.

    But from the standpoint of letting less experienced/freshly 155 players/all the other groups I mentioned experience HT, please consider extending the timer.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. Althariisa
    Offline

    Althariisa Slimy

    241
    57
    230
    Jul 17, 2018
    Female
    12:08 PM
    Tauriel
    Dark Knight
    200
    Honor
    I really miss doing ht... geez

    And then i agree with skarm topic tho... even with a strong party, its still a big use of resourses that you have a high chance to lost if something goes wrong.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. LiquidOoze
    Offline

    LiquidOoze Mixed Golem

    154
    45
    168
    Feb 7, 2018
    11:08 AM
    What are you guys talking about? Don't you love these optimal runs.
    https://streamable.com/fwon2

    I also miss old elitist Skarmory where we ran 3 people HTs only. Also R>HT must bring your own mule either HS/SE/HB.
    https://streamable.com/3x6p9

    Beginning party with a buyer and HB mule:
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 3, 2019
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  13. Rockler
    Offline

    Rockler Mixed Golem

    164
    68
    161
    Jan 8, 2016
    Male
    Sweden
    4:08 PM
    Nude
    Night Lord
    200
    Scamure
    Or just add pinkbean so we can stop doin ht :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Alyosha
    Online

    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

    924
    635
    413
    Mar 9, 2017
    8:08 AM
    Dostoevsky
    Dark Knight
    200
    Spirit
    I'm not really sure if there is a solution, at least not one that isn't overly complicated.

    The most efficient people care about exp and large splits. Even if the timer is extended, there still isn't much of a reason for them to start hosting 12 mans. 6 man HT is just better for them in every way. Why make things complicated when the simple runs they've been hosting work not only well, but to a higher degree of profit?

    I think the main issue is that there aren't enough strong players that not only care more about having fun over profits/exp, but also possess the leadership skills and reach within guilds or alliances to host runs. I think that's what I did appreciate about some of the 12-mans Eiji hosted in the past few weeks. The numbers don't really matter that much to him as much as the people do.

    My Dark Knight, Moob, is running around without a guild right now in part because I didn't really think the alliance I was in fostered a healthy outlook for the game. It wasn't really a community at all, the majority of talk in the alliance chat seemed to just be about buying/selling leech, price checks, or how to play efficiently. I don't really like any of that, but it's a hard habit to kick. It sucks you in. Every time you want to do something end-game there's generally an expectation that you use a mule. I've turned down a number of cwkpq's because people wanted to bring as few people as possible, and they expect you to bring a mule. It just doesn't feel enjoyable once people start caring about splits/boxes/exp.

    Doesn't it feel draining to anyone else? I don't know, it just makes me feel unhappy. There's a lot of stuff in the end-game to be frustrated with.

    I just want to chill and have fun.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Useful Useful x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  15. OP
    OP
    Selquin
    Offline

    Selquin Headless Horseman

    732
    265
    376
    May 28, 2018
    9:08 AM
    Serperior
    Bowmaster, Night Lord, Buccaneer
    200
    Pasta
    I can see where you are coming from and I'm sure a lot of people share your sentiments, but I don't quite empathize with your disdain for efficient game play. To many high level players, myself included, playing efficiently and having fun are largely synonymous. Whereas you would turn down a cwkpq aiming to enter with few people, I would never set foot in a cwkpq run with more than 6 people as it would just seem like a hilarious waste of time. Perhaps there is a disconnect between the more casual minded players and those who prefer to pursue more efficient gameplay. This issue is probably too grand for me to tackle in this thread.
    Bringing it back to HT specifically, I certainly agree there is little reason for strong players to attempt to host 12man runs. I also agree that changing the timer back to 12 hours would have little affect on this fact. The only way 12man runs could be revived is to change the timer to the point where 6man runs are nearly impossible. However I think the popularity of 6man runs on its own isn't actually that big of a problem on its own, rather its the necessary selectivity of these 6man parties that is problematic.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. Alyosha
    Online

    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

    924
    635
    413
    Mar 9, 2017
    8:08 AM
    Dostoevsky
    Dark Knight
    200
    Spirit
    I might be able to get behind a longer timer but I'm not sure if it'll ever bring back 12-man runs. They just aren't really feasible with the current base of players, especially when good bishops are rare. I know I'm outside the norm with my playstyle with the meme characters I enjoy playing, but I do miss struggling to finish Horntail and having it be a challenge.

    I can see lower level 6-mans getting run with an increase in the time, and really I see that becoming more normal than 12-mans if the timer is increased back. I don't know if that would be good, it would probably have a negative effect on the book market because it would also make 3-mans become feasible again. It's not the groups running Horntail once or twice a week that's a problem, it's the people running every chance they get that ruin the book prices. The timer increase would only make it easier for people to run more often in smaller parties that wouldn't work before.

    One of the main issues with the HT book market is that over time, there aren't as many new players buying the skills that drop from Horntail as there are skillbooks coming into the game. It's not really possible to combat that unless there's another explosive growth in players like there was during the summer of 2017(Or if Hyun comes back again with a new 4th job character and gives another book his ol' Blizzard 30 treatment). You can't sell skillbooks to people who already have the skill. The only skill that can really keep its value is mw20 because it's a skill that can be bought by any character without it, so it'll have a much easier time keeping its value. Making Horntail more accessible to smaller groups would exacerbate the declining book prices everywhere else though.

    Being a bishop in Horntail is probably by far the most difficult job. It's like a night and day difference between any other class. I used to think HT was hard, having only ever run on a bishop, but doing it on a Dark Knight is significantly easier, even accounting for zerk. I think 12-mans could come back with something like making Magic Guard not get dispelled by Horntail. With that bishops become as easy as every other character and you're more likely to be able to fill a party and keep HS for the runners. Also it'd make AM's be more viable for their cleave if they don't risk dying, which would also make it easier to fill slots on a 12-man.

    Also we need Shay to teach us brainlet bishops how to use Holy Shield for HT seduces, I still have no idea when it's to be used. Write a short guide plz. SeemsGood
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  17. Fishy
    Offline

    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

    924
    304
    403
    Apr 8, 2017
    Male
    8:08 AM
    Eiji
    Dark Knight
    200
    Beaters
    FeroxAnimaFeroxAnima made a fkcen bishop ht book...SEND IT TO HIM
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  18. Alyosha
    Online

    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

    924
    635
    413
    Mar 9, 2017
    8:08 AM
    Dostoevsky
    Dark Knight
    200
    Spirit
    Rare HT books like that are expensive.
    I'm sure I'm fine without it. SeemsGood
    [​IMG]

    Look at that, I retire with a positive record. MapleF14
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  19. Althariisa
    Offline

    Althariisa Slimy

    241
    57
    230
    Jul 17, 2018
    Female
    12:08 PM
    Tauriel
    Dark Knight
    200
    Honor
    ....................................
    WHY THE DEATH COUNT IS PUBLIC????
     
  20. Lionheart
    Offline

    Lionheart Horntail

    2,073
    1,855
    546
    Apr 25, 2015
    Male
    Gotta catch em all...
    9:08 AM
    Lionheart
    F/P Arch Mage
    151
    Hogwarts
    This is exactly what I was saying from the beginning! The timer doesn't affect the powerful few that already do regular HT runs. They are the ones mainly responsible for finding and selling books. The timer only negatively impacts people with weaker characters.

    Bottom line is that the staff tried to coerce a change in player dynamics and make bossing groups larger. But players don't want to be forced to run in larger groups. It's a pain in the ass. Much harder to organize groups with issues like timezones and having the connections, harder to find even more people to trust, more lag, and with relying on more people means exponentially increased chance something goes wrong during the run. Quite frankly, the staff shouldn't have had any business trying to dictate how players organize their parties.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2

Share This Page