Imminent Buccaneer Changes

Updated 5/31 11:43 PM ST: numbers on the spreadsheet were correct but mapped to the wrong slots in the graph; also added tighter gridlines to fix visual bug.
Updated 6/1 7:21 PM ST: added suggestion to increase range on SI

Last thread, I promise.

Since GMs have indicated that some buccaneer changes are on their way, I just wanted to post a few changes I had in mind. I know I've posted my thoughts before, but here's a more refined version after talking to more and more people, and this will include numbers to justify changes unlike my last thread.

Overview of Suggested Changes
1) [BUFF] Change Energy Charge to charge for each line of attack
2) [NERF] Increase the number of attacks needed to proc Energy Charge by 50%
3) [NERF] Increase the decay rate of Energy Charge while charging
4) [BUFF] Make the bonus attack from Energy Charge stackable again
5) [QoL] When Energy Charge activates, make it appear as a buff on the top right corner
6) [QoL] Cast Demolition only when there is a target available
7) [QoL] Allow Energy Orb to hit multiple stationary monsters

Suggested Changes

[BUFF]s and [NERF]s

1) [BUFF] Change Energy Charge to charge for each line of attack

i.e. Demolition charges 8 times, Barrage charges 6 times, Double Uppercut charges 2 times, all other attacks stay the same

Energy Charge currently takes 44 attacks on monsters (not lines of damage), which works well for grinding, but during bosses Energy Charge becomes somewhat useless. Demolition and Barrage, which take 1.8~2* seconds per attack (but hits 6~8 lines) charges the same amount as Flash Fist or Double Uppercut (1~2 lines), which take 0.45~0.9 seconds. It takes 88* seconds to proc Energy Charge in Super Transformation and 60 seconds without Super Transformation (using Barrage+Double Uppercut; 64 seconds using Barrage+Dragon Strike). This means on average, we spend 39%* of the time with Energy Charge (i.e. with stance). Since getting out of position is a big deal when bossing, especially, for melee attacks, I propose making it easier to proc Energy Charge for single target attacks

2) [NERF] Increase the number of attacks needed to proc Energy Charge by 50%

i.e. 66 charges to proc Energy Charge

Changing Energy Charge to charge faster with multi-hit single target attacks means on Energy Charge will be up on average 80.3%* of the time which seems too high given our decent avoidability and iframes. With the combination of change 1) and 2), on average, we would spend 73%* of the time with Energy Charge.

Let's compare the new numbers to warriors and shadowers at a boss that hits constantly like Horntail:



-Warrior: 10% chance of needing to reposition (trivial avoid and max Power Stance)
-Shadower: 21.1% chance of needing to reposition (with 600 avoid and max Shadow Shifter)
-Buccaneer (pre-changes): 42.9%* overall chance of needing to reposition (with 360 avoid and max Energy Charge)
-Buccaneer (post-changes): 22.7%* overall chance of needing to reposition (with 360 avoid and max Energy Charge)
This comparison isn't entirely fair because shadowers and buccaneers have iframes, but you get the point. I'm not sure how to quantify iframes into this.

The changes would make fighting bosses a lot more manageable, reducing the number of times we need to reposition by half. This might seem like a big buff (which it is), but the stance we got from Energy Charge has been very trivial all this time.

Note: this is an overall nerf to marauders (3rd job), since they would have Energy Charge on a lot less than 71%, since Marauders don't have access to multi-hit single target attacks.

3) [NERF] Increase the decay rate of Energy Charge while charging

i.e. Energy Charge takes 2 minutes to decay to 0 charge (when charging)

When Energy Charge is still charging and the user doesn't attack a monster, the charge built up decays. 1 Attack away from fully charging Energy Charge to 0 charge takes about 8 minutes to decay:

(not an eye change... just a derp SS)
Buccaneers are supposed to be multi-taskers, managing Super Transformation, Energy Charge, buffing others with SI, and allowing multiple Ressurections with TL all at the same time, so standing idle should have a bigger adverse effect than it currently does. Reducing the decay rate of charge to 2 minute makes it so that if you stand idle (e.g. during a weapon cancel in Zakum or HT) you'll have to make up that time.

4) [BUFF] Make the bonus attack from Energy Charge stackable again

i.e. can't be clearer

My original suggestion instead of this was to make Energy Charge last 120 seconds instead of 50 seconds as opposed to this change, but I was told by a few buccaneers that the bonus attack from Energy Charge used to stack with attack pots but it was removed without any notice (I can't find this change from previous balance updates; someone please confirm!). If the bonus used to stack, that might be a better change than increasing the duration of Energy Charge.

So with all these modifications, how do buccaneers do compared to other melee classes?





As a single target melee character, on full buffs, we are currently doing a lot less damage than both Heroes and Dark Knights, which are multi-hit characters. With the buffs mentioned, this would put us above all cleavers (shad, hero, drk), but not paladins.

[QoL]s

5) [QoL] When Energy Charge activates, make it appear as a buff on the top right corner



When Energy Charge is activated, the charge bar just glows, so it's impossible to know how much time is left. This would be such a big QoL. Please make this change if it is possible!

6) [QoL] Cast Demolition only when there is a target available

Demolition has a very big vertical and horizontal range, but it makes it hard to know if you are actually hitting anything or not for bosses like Horntail or Zakum. Ranged characters have arrows, bullets/cannons, and stars to see what you are hitting and what you aren't hitting. Demolition shows a yellow flash on the target, but some targets don't show this animation or are mostly hidden, such as Zakum arms, Horntail tail, etc. When there are lots of people attacking a monster, it's impossible to know what you're hitting.

If anything, I think it's quite problematic that you can just spam Demolition without hitting anything for so many iframes if you're buying HTP or Zhelm service (using only ~300 hornsters at HT). Also, Barrage doesn't allow casting unless there's a monster, so I think it makes sense to make the two attacks consistent.

People have mentioned that this might make a few bosses problematic:
-Big foot: if this change is made, you can spam Demolition and hit Big Foot every time, bypassing the boss's iframes. But since there are so many people in the server now, farming large numbers of big foot is basically impossible.
-Vergamot: in Super Transformation, you can't dodge Vergamot's attacks by ducking for some reason, so buccaneers use Demolition to avoid the attacks, but it seems like a round about way of fixing this. Please fix Vergamot/Super Transformation so that buccaneers need to duck like everyone else to avoid Vergamot's attacks.

7) [QoL] Allow Energy Orb to hit multiple stationary monsters

Energy Orb is supposed to hit multiple enemies by bouncing off of monsters (decreasing in damage after every bounce), just like chain lightning, but in bosses like HT, Orb does not connect any parts of the body. At the very least, I think Energy Orb should link between HT wings and HT arms (and maybe even right head from the right side when it ducks). I haven't tried how this works for Zakum arms.

8) [QoL] Increase the range of Speed Infusion to be the same as Sharp Eyes

SI was previously buffed to have the same range as HS, but I think it'd be really helpful to make it the same as SE/MW. It's definitely not a necessity, but a QoL that will help everyone who benefits from SI! [credits to MrPresident for the suggestion]

Possible Changes that I don't Recommend

9) [BUFF] Change Energy Charge to last 120 seconds

If Suggested Change 1) and 2) happen, buccaneers would on average 73% of the time with Energy Charge like I mentioned. If we buff the duration to 120 seconds, we would have it on average 86.7% of the time. If you add this to the calculation and compare it to other classes, we get:

-Warrior: 10% chance of needing to reposition (trivial avoid and max Power Stance)
-Shadower: 21.1% chance of needing to reposition (with 600 avoid and max Shadow Shifter)
-Buccaneer (pre-changes): 42.9%* overall chance of needing to reposition (with 360 avoid and max Energy Charge)
-Buccaneer (post-changes): 15.2%* overall chance of needing to reposition (with 360 avoid, max modified Energy Charge, and buffed Energy Charge duration)

If you add in iframes to the calculation (however one does that), I wouldn't be surprised with buccaneers only need to reposition <5% of the time, which seems too good for a class that already provides a lot of utility.

On the other hand, if you look at damage calculations, even with this change and the stackable weapon attack, we would still be in the same rank ordering (10.1mil DPM instead of 9.9mil DPM). Either ways, I think this change would just make buccaneers into warriors, which no one wants.

Let me know what y'all think!

Spreadsheet for review:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_2DM6EVcqTYW3JJ6inqWZPKVtFPcQDc56yWQgOOMt_g/edit?usp=sharing
You can play with the parameters in the Class Comparison page, which represent all the changes in this post, and see how DPM goes up or down in real time!

Caveat:
-According to AyumiLove, each demolition cast takes 2.34 seconds, but according to the 2018 Summer Patch in ML, demolition got a speed boost to 1.84 seconds (-500ms). I tested this out on dummies and I get something closer to a 2 seconds, so I used 2 seconds. Where there are * are where these numbers are affected.

 

akashsky if only I knew what that % is ;-;

 

iPippy I would if I knew the numbers for all of that (attacks/min etc.)

 

iPippy

1) 2) if you have any alternative concrete suggestions, they are welcome. I'm not sure what to do with your comment lol
3) this one isn't a big deal and plays a trivial part in buccs rn. But since it's an existing mechanism, I'm suggesting this change.
5) you might not care when bubble is on or off (or maybe you're just good at keeping track of time) but there are monsters/bosses I fight where I can only reasonably position myself with Energy Charge on, so it's helpful to know the exact timer.
6) that's my point exactly that buccs are able to dodge whatever attack whenever. Shads can also do this with Bstep but demo has a little less than 2seconds of iframes at a time, which makes it kinda crazy.

 

3) It's not much of a coding effort, since like I said it's already a mechanism in place. It's just tweaking the number, or as you say it "adjust the numbers to make 'balance'"
5) Cleaving HT wing/right arm/mid head/right head with Snatch. If I stay till Energy Charge is over, I will most likely fall and lose a lot of time. It's something everyone else gets with all their buffs, so I think buccs having it isn't too much to ask. Also, I understand you care a lot about DPM optimization, but people play different styles for different reasons; there isn't an all-purpose "shouldnt be offering to help" situation lol
6) I say yes to it's a change I want and no it's not a nerf to our QoL. But you're entitled to your own opinion. I've been trying out right-side range bucc in HT lately, and I can't tell if I'm hitting right head when it starts to duck or nothing because demo doesn't reach mid head, and you can't really see the flashy hit animation from up there.

 

iPippy So I added an option to play around with the following in the spreadsheet (under the Class Comparison page), the middle three based on your suggestion:
-Total Number of attacks for EC
-Charges/attack for EC (demolition)
-Charges/attack for EC (barrage)
-Charges/attack for EC (double uppercut)
-EC Duration
Change the numbers and see your DPM go up and down in real time!

 

iPippy
3) please read the OP on why this does have an impact
6) then let's remove the safety lock on barrage--your argument works here too. I'm fine if both don't have a safety lock or both do but not the half and half though. And can you please explain why it's not an opinion and is instead a fact...? I was not aware that there is an objective truth to how demolition works lol

 

Based on conversations with some people, it seems like there's a group of people who are very against this change. I recognize that buccaneers already have a little bit of everything (bless, rage, stance, rush, iframes, high avoid, monster magnet, party-buff, resurrection support, and more), and I am asking for more. A lot of why I want more is to make buccaneer a more popular class, so we aren't just mules but a welcome part of bossing communities. Still, I welcome the "Disagreement" rating on the OP, since it's fair to gauge the opposition. This thread and the ratings may or may not affect GMs thoughts on bucc changes, but it will definitely give the community a more accurate reading of where people stand on it

And as always, other better (more mild or more extreme) suggestions are also welcome, and I'm happy to incorporate them into the original post. If you agree with the changes I suggest but disagree with the numbers, I added parameters (only 5 numbers that reflect all the changes!) in the spreadsheet to change the details and see how DPM/avoid rate changes in real time!

 

iPippy my understanding is that while casting demolition, ~1600ms of the ~2000ms are iframes (75%) as opposed to 1830ms (barrage duration) out of the 2730ms (barrage+double uppercut; 67%). Based on this, if anything, untransformed stance is more valuable than transformed stance.

But, I do agree that charge doesn't necessarily need to be buffed to be 1 charge per line--just need something better somehow for single-target attacks. I used 1 charge per line in the post because that seemed the simplest way to change how charged lines for single-target attacks, but I'm open to different combinations of charge/attack.

I ran the numbers using 4 charges per demo, 3 charges per barrage, 1 per double uppercut (i.e. half the number of charges as there are lines of attack for single target attacks), and what you get is the same damage as 2H hero on all buffs (+500k DPM from original changes), 57.7% of overall time with stance 90% (down from 73%), and 31.8% total chance of needing to reposition after taking damage (up from 22.6%). This still seems very reasonable to me.