Let's talk about washing too

Kimmy, firstly i'd like to give my respect to you for bringing out this sensitive topic.

I think the solution to solve this hp wash deal is by adding 1k hp ring to all class(1k Mp for mage) at lv120, i think this will solve the whole hp wash problem that everyones facing.
Personally i feel hp wash is a NECESSITY right now to fully enjoy the game so by adding this extra 1k hp it will open up unwashed players to attempt more content in game.
For example i will use thief because it is the most played class
(24 x level) +472 <- MinHP, i will use lv140 for this instance (because that lv is the most optimal level for bossing)

At lv140 thief will have 3,832 HP unwashed but with the 1k bonus He will be able to do not only Zac but HT with HB, resulting him more engaged with the game. (Boss/Raid/Guild)

Just by adding that 1k hp ingame, "Hp washing" doesn't become a necessity but a leisure for the Legends.

For those that have already washed there is no demerit for you either because it just means you'l be able to go on boss earlier than unwashed which is the whole point of hp washing. But for the very few who has already achieved 30k hp i believe they should be rewarded a ring +1 all stat. this will shut them up right?;D (but honestly this is a great accomplishment)

I honestly like the idea of implementing this "permanent MaxMp from boss/ quest" because this honestly caters to both unwashed and washed in my opinion.
Personally i'd like it to be boss drops because it will encourage players to join guild and this game is hella fun bossing with people.

I think this permanent maxMp is the way to go other than maxHp because it just keeps the nx flow going(uses of APR) and i dont think apr prices should change, it is just right.

Let me know what you guys think

 

I'm saying I think it should be removed, though I know it will not be. The game should have an HP/MP overhaul, instead of adding more custom content into the game. Buffs should be a benefit not a requirement, but HP washing will stay in the game, so what can you do?

We can sit here all day and pick things out of context instead of seeing the big picture of a statement if you'd like?

But since we are, as you said, "Correct, that's true." If you don't wash, HB is required, that's the flaw. Fix that. Come up with a way to fix it.

I said it once, I'll say it again, keeping something in the game because it is nostalgic is stupid and a lazy excuse. It is a mechanic no one is happy with. People defend it because of the time they already invested in it, not because they agree with it. I don't care for the elitest mentality. It is Maple for god sakes not WOW.

The orbs and the ring idea are ways to making HP washing less painful to do, it is not a fix for the problem.

 

This kind of reply didn't require your passive condescension. What I think you're not taking into consideration is that a program can be designed in any number of ways. Just because we introduce a new system does not necessitate that it create OP characters. I'm not sure what kind of programming expertise Kimberly has available to her, but...

What if there was a way to interact the MonsterBook with Washing? Meaning: If a player washes enough, then the highest ring of the tier won't activate. If an inverse algorithm is applied, then you can still HP wash to your heart's desire, but the MonsterBook ring won't give you it's bonus. This allows for the alternative path while making sure no one can create an OP character. Obviously, there should be a known CAP so that players know exactly how much washing they can do before it negates each of the ring's Tiers. It would take some number crunching, but I think this could be a viable compromise.

 

1hp for 5,000,000 meso would be insane meso sink.

Consider going full lucyflower mode and getting like 10m/hr. (no offence lucyflower, you're a godmode farmer <3)

to obtain 10,000 extra hp would take you 50b = 208.3 days pure farming time to achieve this.

for a semi-hardcore person farming 6hrs a day would take about 2.3years.

Edit: It's ok man the server is already "custom"

 

I disagree that party buffs are somehow a flaw, but let's move on to solutions.

I'm guessing the only solution you'd accept is getting an automatic HP boost? (I'm pretty sure Kimmy already said this isn't even on the table). If not, please at least read my below solution. It allows players to HP wash at any level, without any base INT, nor INT equips, nor a mage alt, and there's even a meso disincentive for already-washed players to do it. It also addresses Annolis and Zeretius suggestions.

 

Party Buffs aren't flawed. Fixing the HP system does not in anyway require a Nerf/buff to HB NOR does it lower it's benefit when you have % recover potions. So I agree, let's move on to solutions.

No, an HP Boost is not the solution I need, nor expect. I need a better system that caters to multiple playstyles. I agree that the option to HP wash as it is should stand. If people wish to go for that as a luxury, they may. If that holds to others nostalgia, go for it.

To others though, making multiple characters especially one that is an attacker, the down side to washing is the time it would take down this specific path that currently requires leeching. It is the same reason my pirate is still level 36. Hell it is the reason I even have a Bishop. The idea is to find a path for players to boss comfortably without such things and this would allow new player to strive much more easily.

I agree having a PHYSICAL item is a thing people would want to see instead of a soft stat hit. I agree with Ayderac that a ring adds to a slot with poor options already, however I don't see monster cards as a solution. Already you see people having to vote and gaining 1 to 2 resets a day. The time needed to collect sets of cards is a similar situation. Having to do it on each and every character for HP gain just seems bleh. Makes people not even care to make another character which creates a quick decline in game interest which creates people leaving/quitting.

(Guess depends on the drop rate. If it is like regular GMS it shouldn't be a problem cause you kill 5 mobs and a card drops.)

There is just no real good solution to this. Either the mechanic is gutted to the point it can be ignored/removed, or we keep as is and we have the same issues we have.

 

I'm glad you brought up the issue of needing to make multiple characters and leech yourself under the normal HP-wash system, because I specifically addressed that in my suggestion. With my suggestion the monster book reward would give you a ring with some stats, but also reward you with some base MP that you can use AP resets to wash out. Note that this does not mean that you need any base INT, nor does it mean you need any INT gear, nor does it mean you need a mage to leech yourself, which are all things you and other people have strife with.

First of all, voting is a time-gate whereas hunting for monster cards would be an effort/luck-gate, which are not directly comparable. This is important for many reasons, but one being that a player could be doing the normal HP-wash system while also doing an effort-gate like the monster book rewards, which (some) players see as allowing normal-washed players become way too OP. However, if you link the monster book reward system to AP resets (through base MP) it shares the same time-gate as normal HP-washing.
Another reason is that I believe simply giving players enough HP from an equip to be able to ignore washing is harmful to the longevity of the server. Remember, the reason why people want to HP wash in the first place is to be able to kill HT at a lower level than normal, and to have an easier more relaxing time bossing. If this ability were given out to everybody for next to nothing (no time cost, nor effort cost, nor meso cost), I feel that people will quickly lose interest in the game after bossing a few times because this they won't feel any sense of accomplishment and will complain how the end game boss, HT, is too easy. If you really want the boss to be easy, I feel you should put in 'some' effort and 'some' time at the very least. And even then, my suggestion is a generous compromise that takes out a lot of the major complaints that people have.

It sure sounds like you just want the HP without putting in any time, effort, or cost. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nonsense. You're throwing out the whole discussion thread for an ultimatum that isn't even on the table.


On a side note about my suggestion, I'm hoping people can try and poke holes in it so it can be fine-tuned.

 

I have a new suggestion, not a really well thought out one though.

Quest: Collect # of <orb(s)>
<orb(s)> can be found by killing Zak/Scar/Targa (and maybe, HH/BF/Papu/Levi/Lilynouch/Lyka).

Level requirement: lvl 135+
Maybe lvl 120+ is also a good option.

Rewards: Pay 15m and gain hp based on the amount each Class gains from 1 fresh AP.
For example, NL/BMs get 16-20hp from each fresh AP placed into hp, so those classes are rewarded with 16-20 hp. I also think classes such as warriors and brawlers should be rewarded hp that includes their max hp gaining skill.
The 15m fee would solve the lack of meso sinks on the server and slow down inflation. Alternatively, this quest could reward mp instead and have a lower fee such as 5m for example.

Repeatable: Every 12 hours
I actually don't know about this one, maybe 24hours and then double the fee and hp rewarded. I feel grinding for 1 wash per day is too slow, an unprepared NL would need to spend 93 days grinding this quest to reach 5.6k hp for HT if it were 1 reward per day. This quest should also have diminishing rewards after maybe 80 completions?

Now, I haven't really thought much here, maybe theres a major flaw I do not see please lmk what you think about this idea. Also don't go nitpicking my numbers saying they are absurd, they are JUST suggestions and examples. Suggest your own values and back them up with reason.

TL;DR
I'm suggesting a new high level quest (repeatable), asking you to kill bosses and pay mesos and gain hp.

 

i would suggest get 12 mana instead, so they will also need to waste ap like the rest and also take part of the mechanism of wash

 

I totally welcome a secondary method of gaining HP/MP.

Having an Alternative method to gain hp is better than None other way except Hp/Mp wash.

Look at it this way, the current to reach the final destination is only by flight (or in this case the minimum hp for Horntail at Lvl155 through HP/MP wash and HB).

Implementing a secondary method to reach the final destination i.e by ship ( or in this Monster card HP rewards for the minimum HP for Horntail at lvl 155 ).

The admin could always Nerf/Buff the reward depending how overwhelming or under whelming the reward perform. (Look at the amount of balances Blizzard done to their games like Diablo, World of warcraft etc. It is just Neckson that do not give a damn about it!)

There are also certain data that only the Admin can collect such as how much, how effective, how fast are the players gaining HP through the rewards.

All in all, it is pure speculation on the player side that the reward would be too over/under powered until the Admin team give a more accurate layout of the reward system.

PS: Make OPQ great again!

 

What did I just read? That's the point of the boss. Taking down bosses like zakum and HT are about teamwork. HT requires even more teamwork than zakum because it has the dispel ability; it is the final boss in the game. It should be hard. It should require communication, collaboration, and cohesiveness to take down.

 

But it's not. People farm it no issue, because of HP washing. They type full sentences while fighting it. The argument could be made in the opposite direction that HP washing removes the need for a team. You are all hung up on hyper body like I think it is the problem just because I say it should be a benefit not a requirement. It is almost comical.

My suggestion of an HP/MP overhaul is not going to happen. The staff already said so, saying Rein did it which they messed up giving everyone 50+ health per level so NLs gaining 70 hp per level. Yeah they f'ed the numbers. So if they actually cared to put time in it legends could do it right, but I got told that system was flawed, and when asked how, no answer. Classic.

What I meant by gutted to the point that it can be removed/ignored or keep as is, is if there is nothing wrong with wash, why have this discussion in the first place? If something isn't going to be put in the game for people that casually play the game aka don't want to spend 2 to 3 months washing a nice attacker, even older players don't want to, then why talk about this at all?

You have a system that every one says isn't needed, yet every one does. A system that makes the same issues you say are flawed by doing something that was never intended by the game giving people more HP. You have a boss that everyone wants to keep challenging, that isn't because this mechanic. You want to step back from a vote2win system, but the thing you choose to keep you different from others, is the most vote2win thing in your game. Makes no sense. There is no good defense for it, yet people keep trying. You can't say something is nostalgic, when it was not a core mechanic some player thought of that Neckson took advantage of. Taking out washing does not hurt the integrity of the game. Voting once a day is not a challenging system, it is an inconvenience. Annoying at best.

HP washing is the flaw. Hopefully that helped steer us off the hyper body...

 

Actually what you guys really want is to make HT easier (or, from a different perspective, more balanced). Because if you really "take out washing", you are left with exactly zero options to go HT at level 155. There is literally nothing you can do in this case except wait till level 180. Washing is an enabler more than anything; it is a bug exploit that makes the game easier for you because the alternative to its existence is that you wait till level 18x to go HT.

EDIT: you can pump AP into HP as well...but hmm. Something tells me no one wants to do that either.

 

One way to address the imbalance of hp/mp for different classes is to reward job-specific rings. Thief's [150 card collector] ring can add the hp they'd like (NL need the extra HP, shadowers get essentially double the effective HP due to meso guard), whereas Warrior's [150 card collector] ring adds extra STR/DEX/Accuracy. This would boost a warrior's damage, which pales in comparison to NL's in terms of 1 on 1 bossing, provides NL (or bowman/corsairs) with additional HP, and rewards players for their efforts in a meaningful + tangible way.

This can be extended to quest rewards aswell. Job specific rewards for harder quests that give base mp to jobs that need it and extra exp to jobs that don't.

 

Everyone does washing here because you get NX for free, in real servers it would cost hundreds of dollars to wash enough for HT.

Try playing your attacker from 1-155 without leech and get to 155 in less than 3 months. Probably not gonna happen cause it is actually slow, but everyone relies on leech and think leeching is the "only" way to lvl up an attacker with base INT and to progress. That ideology is efficient (cause mages are good money makers) but also very false cause it eliminates your other options to progress with the class you originally want and it creates a mindset where you can't enjoy the game cause of these factors.

I'm just sad this mentality is taking over new players because they're at a time where multi-clienting is a thing everyone can do, but older players washed their characters to HT at 155 without multi-clienting (because it used to be disabled unless you used a vmware/other device and wasn't very popular) and I don't think people complained as much as people complain now (also due to the fact everyone here adds 200 INT and then whine about that, 10k on a ranged character is too much, if you want that then suffer the consequences).

 

But all this right here and what others do is a poor justification to keep a broken system in place. No one can give a valid benefit to washing. One that no other logical system can give better. You can't do it and that's the issue with washing and one of the reasons people hate it. There is no point to it existing. I have downloaded and played with the numbers on my own 62 server and there are better alternatives to the system, just have to mess with it. People say HT is hard but talk about beating it 40 levels below the supposed cap because of what washing allows them to do and it is comical.

And to save everyone's breath, no I'm not talking about buffing HT because the brick walls on this thread will take it as that. Buffing HT does nothing to fix the issue and leads to more washing. Just remove washing.

 

Washing in a sense is logical, the process may seem dumb by requiring stats you dont need INT and MP (sacrificing damage) but it gives you a product of increased hp (survivability) while maintaining your damage/no damage loss.

I don't mind removing washing, but we don't need to replace it with anything, cause technically you can do HT without washing, you can utilize hp gear, or pumping ap into hp to survive or lvl up to 17x+ and do the boss. That would be more challenging than having 10k HP NLs right?

 

I'm sorry, but it's extremely confusing to try and navigate your arguments. I completely agree that HP washing makes HT easier and also lessens the degree of teamwork needed ("argument could be made in the opposite direction", what do you mean? Also I don't think anybody is arguing that HP washing makes HT harder.), which is why it seems contradictory that you want everybody to have that easier time.

Again, this looks to me like you're contradicting yourself. You've already said that you don't want automatic HP bonus, but here you are saying that is exactly your suggestion.

If you genuinely missed the whole point of this discussion thread, it was posted by Kimmy multiple times already.

A couple things here. I personally believe that this server would have been a little better if in the very beginning, the AP reset item were modified to not work on HP/MP. It is true that you don't need to wash but a lot of people do it because it is an optional route made available through voting for NX. I don't think people are specifically defending the design choice of HP-washing as a system, they are arguing against allowing this system to be made easier to do, which is an important distinction to understand.

The other thing here that you brought up is nostalgia. The most original/nostalgic scenario for the server would have been to not have washing as an option in the first place. But you fundamentally contradict this by suggesting to make it easier for everybody to get the benefits of HP-washing. That is entirely not original, nor nostalgic and I would argue damaging to the integrity of a server. The reason why I and others are arguing that the benefits of HP-washing should not be made easier is to prevent the server from further straying from an original experience which is directly tied to the integrity of the server's goals.

Removing washing from a server that has had washing as a thing for its existing lifespan is a ridiculous suggestion, nonsensical. It would cause a stupid amount of imbalance for everybody. I don't even know how to politely respond to this other than the admins have already said this isn't happening. This is derailing the specific goals of this discussion thread, please discuss tangible solutions that apply to the reality of this server. I've already laid out my compromising solution.

 

Reading this almost comical. You're the one who is bringing up HB in a thread about HP washing?

As for asking why this thread was created, let me help you out:

This thread is to discuss the communities opinion about washing. You seem to very clearly believe the mechanic is bad. Not everyone shares that opinion. This thread was created in the hopes to gather feedback from different people with different opinions on the ideas Kim has put forth. The ideas Kim has put forth are to help players who found out about washing late, not to remove washing from the game.

When they nerf things like weddings and gachapon from NX, it's because it encourages gameplay where you never login, vote for days or months, and then log in to acquire a sum of mesos by literally doing almost nothing. This encourages inactive gameplay, which is bad. Washing doesn't do this in itself. You could make a reach argument that it promotes leeching, but most of the people doing this acquire mesos not by voting endlessly (because they are saving NX from vote to wash), but by grinding on an alternative character or merching in game.

 

So instantly because the original post suggest some ideas, I have to talk only about those ideas, and not give my opinion/any one else give theirs? I believe it asked for a discussion and for ideas. I'm just giving mine. It is not derailing. Sorry. n.n

Interesting how quick people are to shit on others. And still not given a good reason to keep washing other than "it's been there from the start". Washing was not a thing in closed beta even the early stages of open beta GMS, so how can you say it was a big part of the original game? I played in closed beta and late into open beta and never heard of washing until I came to this private server. So no, removing it does not hurt the integrity of the game.

If you want my honest opinion and discussion about your suggestion I would be more than happy to give it without shitting on it because it doesn't involve removing hp washing, but I'm having a hard time getting there.