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Make the Challenges System level-gated (level ≥100) instead of job-advancement-gated

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by deer, Oct 10, 2022.

  1. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Bloodwashing is always an option, and beginners are the class that would take the smallest DPM hit by bloodwashing a significant amount of AP. I find it strange that a niche group of people that specifically chooses their unique style of play are so fervently against bloodwashing as if that option is unviable.
     
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  2. Taima
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    Taima Mushmom

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    That's very funny, we would take the smallest DPM hit of any job by bloodwashing. We would also have the smallest DPM hit by just removing our weapon and never attacking, if that's also funny I guess. We are basic attacking enemies dozens to hundreds to thousands of times to defeat them, so every bit of minimum and maximum damage matters dearly. To bloodwash to the extent that I have washed (barely able to survive Ravana/Papulatus with good HP equips) I would have to sink about 82 AP into HP at +12 HP each (forever unrecoverable AP btw because I assume we are not washing it out), which is about equivalent to the maximum base INT I have ever had, and also level to 140, because I was too lazy to redo the calculation and took the HP values from my first post. If you screw your damage too much as a serious Beginner, things like boss soloing become no more interesting or fun, but way more expensive in power elixirs.

    The point is, I don't know long-term Beginners that bloodwash. Why would they, when they can add base INT, obtain better results, and one day hope to reset that INT into a damage stat? Should we have a new era of Beginnerism and all begin resetting our STR into HP thanks to the wisdom of people who don't even really care about the whole thing? Some players have these types of characters that bloodwash, or add ONLY in to HP, and that is also a unique way to play. Not many people told average Bowmen or Thieves to just bloodwash and take the DPM hit, and the people that did have already been overridden. That's why the HP challenge system exists in alpha form now, and why this suggestion thread is here to see if it's reasonable for us to partake too.
     
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  3. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Bloodwashing is probably a more intended feature than is HP washing. I'm just here to point out the contrarian stances you seem to be taking. You want to min-max your damage on a permabeginner, but you refuse to bloodwash in order to access content you otherwise would not be able to participate in. While asking for higher base HP, you use the argument that the game is currently not designed for inclusion, yet you guys are the ones that are choosing to exclude yourselves from the rest of the game's features -- so pardon my vilification when approaching this confusing topic.

    82 AP in STR versus HP that would yield you how much range? Could you not simply scroll harder?
     
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  4. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Nightshadow

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    If you're really hellbent on going to HT as a str mage or permabeginner. You should HP wash. But nobody does this, so it's a moot point.
     
  5. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Nightshadow

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    For what it's worth, I'm in favor of no challenge system and no HP wash and tell everyone playing an attacker to bloodwash.
     
  6. Taima
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    Taima Mushmom

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    Some of these ideas seem to be part of some larger idea that HP washing should not be the entire MapleLegends community's cultural standard. You can push for that, but why in this thread and not here or in a new suggestion thread? HP/MP washing is the superior option and choice of most Beginners, and for me one reason is that I am reluctant to permanently lose damage by not washing fully. I would guess that most MapleLegends players in general are not bloodwashing now either, and the HP washers eventually want that INT to return to a main damage AP stat. Mass bloodwashing is just not the way of the server right now, and it comes off as if you are trying to derail the thread rather than give advice or raise a truly held concern.

    You are free to calculate some hypothetical damage ranges and bloodwashed HP yourself and market the idea elsewhere. Should we all bloodwash and ban HP washing? Let go of our attachment to high numbers, and have a slower, more classic experience where not every job can do every boss? Isn't it too late for MapleLegends to be that server anyway? Another thread should host that discussion, because this suggestion relies on the HP challenge existing.

    Sorry to collect you both in one reply here, I'm sure you're fine people in a different context, but some of these posts display a lack of understanding of this thread, or of this smaller community within the community, or of the context under which the suggestion was made. Level 100+ STR Mages can do the challenges if they want upon release, and have Magic Guard; completely different beast compared to a Beginner. There are many Beginners that do HP wash which anyone who reads the thread would realize; it's just not a fun feature. We do it because we at one point realized we had to for our individual goal, or for most of the fun "high level Beginner stuff" available when the PQs slow down or are gone.

    Beginners could just submit to their HP bar and only attack mobs and some area bosses, or we could "minmax" if that's what my character progress reads as. A better minmaxer would have started the HP/MP wash hell process a lot earlier, because every death is lost DPH. Maybe we have all just convinced ourselves that we should feel like we need higher base HP than what Wizet gave us, but there actually is a solid odd "game within the game" progression available for us if we do. Doing this content is partly how the Oddjob phenomenon aside the Beginner community gained popularity here on ML, which according to one popular post was somehow tarnished when we also wanted to drop the HP washing but keep the HP. The current cultural set of assumptions in the ML community tells us that HP washing is normal and not abnormal, and so we do it.

    With this extra base HP from washing, we eventually can make it to Horntail, but need complete HP gear at all times. We could just HP wash harder, but after a certain point you sort of would need to leech. We have been 'scrolling harder' for a long time within the current system and will try to keep it up. It's hard to tell how serious the replies are actually. If someone makes the bloodwashed beginner, add me in game and let's be friends. But I don't want to bloodwash under the current set of options, and I take standardized bloodwashing to be the more contrarian stance (when present in this private server with current HP wash attitudes).
     
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  7. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Nightshadow

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    Most people are washing for specific content, usually PB or NT AFAIK. What are permabeginners washing for? What content are permabeginners locked out of by their HP? The bigger obstacle is the lack of job advance, which is entirely on you. Lower HP is also an inherent characteristic of permabeginners. You accept that if you play a beginner. You can argue that permabeginner should have access to some kind of additional HP, but again the question becomes how much? The numbers exist in terms of, say, NLs at PB with HB. But there's nothing for beginners because there are simply no beginners running even Zak AFAIK. If you think permabeginners need more HP, a good start would be figuring out how much and why.
     
  8. Hanger
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    Hanger Orange Mushroom

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    I mained a beginner until lv120, and I've actually taken a look at what threshold a Beginner MIGHT want to do at their specific endgame. I think to a large extent, beginners are restricted to Taipei 101, and higher level world area bosses like Dodo, Lilynouch, Levi, Crimson Balrog as realistic targets for their endgame. For the more ambitious of such, an all beginner Papulatus or Pianus is also possible, but so far the only Beginners capable of actually participating in this readily would be myself and Taima. To qualify this, a beginner at absolute endgame gear can expect on ciders to deal 10-15m damage per HOUR. This straight up tells you major bosses like Zakum, Horntail, Toad, etc., are a straight up impossibility. Not to mention we're locked out from PB by default.

    So I put forward the idea to my oddjob fellows that if you really want to make a Beginner that does amazing things, you at least want to be able to kill Crog. Now anything above Crog that a Beginner could realistically do, like Spirit of Rock, deals from 3.6k-7k damage. And then there's the issue of realistically being able to kill the bosses, meaning you need your dpm to be above a certain threshold, and you need your accuracy to be at least above 155, for endgame content.

    So, for MOST of the endgame content a Beginner could do lies behind an HP wall of at least 4k. This still entails a modest amount of washing, and if you actually want to play your beginner, 120INT would be the working maximum I would recommend a Beginner should have. Without good INT gear, this entails them barely reaching the endgame content by 120, if they even do at all. You have to wash a beginner to play at tp101, to do capt. Latanica, to fight crog, to actually see through a challenge that means nothing to anyone else but you. Likewise, you have to wash your Night Lord, to fight HT, PB, Auf, Boss, Toad, to actually see through a challenge that no one else cares about other than you.

    Now, the meat of your comment asks to the effect of why a Beginner should even care about "content" because none or them could ever do the endgame content you even care to talk about. Yet, there is still content, you just don't care about it. Imagine had I asked why should you give a damn about PB as a marksman, don't bother HP washing, by choosing Marksman you accept you have lower HP and can probably never PB anyway. Obviously that sounds ridiculous. And if a person chose to not wash their marksman and never bothered to play endgame content, that's cool too.

    So what exactly is the problem with a Beginner who wants to do their specific endgame challenges that only means anything to them? It just seems a little wonky that you say there's NOTHING for beginners or oddjobs generally, when the same holds true for literally every other class if they don't minmax, just in their own ways.
     
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  9. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Nightshadow

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    I want to be clear about my position. I am not against permabeginners being included in challenge system. But I don't think it should apply to them the way it applies to other melee classes like warriors, buccs, and shads. The reason is because no beginner can meaningfully clear the content their challenge system is geared for. It would also screw with permabeginner class identity if they had a huge amount of HP. I think a good solution would be to make the mage challenge system available to beginners as well. So permabeginners could get as much HP as a mage. Because this is the lowest amount, there would be no potential for abuse (at least as far as I can tell) and also no need for a lockout.
     
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  10. Hanger
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    Hanger Orange Mushroom

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    I can understand that line of thinking and I'm inclined to agree. The only thing that is a little difficult and probably where I might be misunderstanding the challenges system is that there's a discussion around once using the challenge system, you forgo washing completely. This means that even if a mage wanted to use the challenge system, they don't benefit from adhoc mpwashing. And it's just not clear yet to me how mp washing may be done in tandem with the challenge system. So I don't even know if you could really abuse the system in this way.

    Class identity-wise, I suppose I'd have to disagree until I can see transparently what exactly the system is going to be like. Because if it happens that certain challenges just can't be completed by a Beginner like "kill Bodyguard A",, then the Beginner just can't get too high of a HP threshold by default, which I'd think is fine.
     
  11. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Nightshadow

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    My understanding is that accepting the challenge won't lock you out of MP washing. So you still can MP wash. I don't know if this impacts beginner at all.
    I don't see why you wouldn't be able to clear that challenge by bringing a Bishop for Res and carrying the Beginner through the run. There's no indication that you won't be able to leech through the challenges. Obviously not every class is being given 22k HP. Classes that "should" have less HP, such as ranged attackers, will be getting less HP. Beginner also "should" have less HP. That's the caveat with playing beginner, on top of losing access to skills you lose a ton of DPS and HP.
     
  12. Hanger
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    Hanger Orange Mushroom

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    In the post, there was something mentioned about locking out placing AP into your HP/MP statpool (which they share as you're aware) upon the first challenge boon to HP. This sounds to me like you might be able to MP wash up to a certain point, and then apply the challenges system, but not vice versa.

    To your 2nd point, it depends on what they do. The staff already managed to make a system where you can't leech kills towards the quest,as well as a system where you have to participate to have things register viz a viz Anniversary raffles and points systems. It wouldn't seem totally bonkers that they might apply the same thing to a fresh new systen that they're designing.

    Also, tying identity to HP is wonky. I'm not saying you're wrong, but Snuggles is already on his way to making a 30k hp beginner. Still a beginner, just has 30k ho. I'd also find it questionable if a beginner got the same hp as a warrior. That would be mega questionable. But a beginner with 10k hp? 12k? I don't think it quite matters. The number is irrelevant to the class identity. I could if i wanted wash foe 3 years and make a 25k hp ginner. Is that any less of a beginner? And if you really wanted to limit it, hide a challenge behind a wall that can't be surpassed by a beginner.
     
  13. Hanger
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    Hanger Orange Mushroom

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    Pardon my spelling, typing on the phone whilst you're tired isn't the best for coherency and precision.
     
  14. Hanger
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    Hanger Orange Mushroom

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    Maybe I'm missing the point, but isn't this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? Never participate in PB or Auf then as a normal job. Just bloodwash and realise you don't have the dpm for it. Or don't bloodwash and never have the hp for it. Just scroll harder bro.

    Genuinely, what is the difference between a beginner wanting to hpwash or benefit from the challenge system to participate in latanica or papulatus...and a nl wanting to wash to do their own endgame content? They're just both cases of Minmaxing. Just because you play a suboptimal character doesn't mean you can't play the suboptimal character optimally.
     
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  15. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Nightshadow

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    One of the things I don't like about HP washing is that it allows any class to go to 30k HP (in theory). Clearly the staff share this view, on some level, because different classes are given different max HP amounts in the challenge system. If it's a given that different classes should have different HP, it makes sense to me that beginner should have the lowest (tied with mage) in accordance with their naturally low HP. But with 3.4k base HP, tier 10 ring, and Ellin Forest ring, they would be able to clear bosses like crogs.
     
  16. Estrahl
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    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

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    At some point I wonder if base max HP might be capped for different classes.
    something like:
    40k for Warriors
    20k for Melee
    15k for Ranged
    10k for Mages

    I know this would invalidate a lot of 30k/30k builds though, and force the rest to hit max HP because we all hyper-optimize and expect hyper-optimization towards end game as a collective.
     
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  17. Hanger
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    Hanger Orange Mushroom

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    I despise washing in principle, but the fact that the mechanic exists is not something I'd lightly remove from the game. Not even for simple moral reasons about balance. But more for the spirit of Maplestory. What is the point of being the strongest character? What is the point of being the first level 200? What is the point of having a 30k ho character?

    Intrinsically, nothing.

    But the fact that it can be done, the fact you can have a flex, the fact that you have these icons in the game that do crazy things is something to be celebrated and not something to be dismissive of . Washing is objectively terrible for game balance, and for gameplay. But I wouldn't discount the depth it offers.

    And limiting oddjobs or beginners or what have you to the bare minimum of what they can do, I think makes maple lose its lustre bigtime. Because then the game becomes truly uninteresting. You just play your bishop and leech with it, to fund your NL, which you fund with 30b, to hit lv 200, wash out or finish your challenges, and then quit after the first pb. <- not an exaggeration of an average playthrough of Maplestory The Game btw.
     
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  18. Hanger
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    Hanger Orange Mushroom

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    I can understand the sentiment Blen, but the system is sort of seen as an alternative or an outright replacement of hpwashing, depending on how it goes. This isn't something trivial like aufheben not being accessible to a Beginner. They nver stood a chance there.

    This is about a system that impacts how the game will be played moving forward. This impacts those who are planning to wash thise who don't want to wash, and those who have already been washed.

    It's not as simple as "well you already made your oddjob character knowing the system wouldn't be there, what's the problem?"

    So I make a new oddjob character knowing the system is there. Which becomes a regressive ooga booga argument about why oddjobs are marginalised and excluded etc etc. That's whatever.

    Or, I simply ask a question. Why should anyone care for this system at all? If you can answer that, the sentiment is echoed from the oddjob community.
     
  19. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    I would make the argument that for most players who have been on this server for 6+ months that the new system should not affect them whatsoever. Either they should have already completed washing, should be far enough into a wash project that backing out is not worth it, or have enough NX that they can undertake a wash project that surpasses the challenge system. The challenge system, as far as I see it, is designed for brand new players - players without a bank of NX - who would previously have been lost to quitting upon finding out about washing. This is purely a tool to assist with player retention for new arrivals.

    There are scenarios, especially for incredibly old characters who levelled before hyper washing was commonplace, where this new system can "save" their characters, but a lot of these players who are still playing have also either remade their character or created another properly washed character, but I wouldn't say not having access to the new system is necessarily a "downgrade" in any sense, as any player who previously wanted to plan around high washing goals has already done so.
     
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  20. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I never said beginners can't or shouldn't hp wash. If they want to participate in content, they probably should. Again, I am simply pointing out the fact that bloodwashing is a viable option for beginners who are so dead set on being included in this type of content (HT, PB) that was clearly not designed for their inclusion, and their DPM is never going to matter because they are going to be carried by other classes no matter what they do.
     

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