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Making Heros Useful Again

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by datahush, May 9, 2022.

  1. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    DrK requires more mechanical skill/attention than probably every class except maybe Corsair 8) HB is worth it, right?
     
  2. Ainz
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    Ainz Skelegon

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    So many I keep forgetting
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    Attention? Yes
    Mechanical skill? No :(
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    I thought about this abstract when I wrote it and that's why I included the slash component. Someone wants to make the comparison between skill and attention demand as though any class in this game is mechanically intensive. OnionF3

    I like the ideas of separating cleave and single target mechanics with diversifying kits. It gives you room to perform better and worse, which means there's things to do. On one hand though, it's already suffocating to strive for 100% berzerk in some bosses while not dying since pets fail to pot VERY FREQUENTLY (i estimate at least once every two minutes) Big fuck you to targa where if I want to maximize performance i need to follow him with turning and jump attacks while being always 2 hits from dying, aka 1 pet neglect and half a second of attention lost, so i'm glancing back and forth every half second between hp & my body... For like 30minutes..

    But that's not a bad thing. High attentive/focused mechanical input and stuff isn't bad gameplay. I just feel unrewarded for doing it while the NL behind me with 100int still, is just holding 1 button down and doubling my damage.

    I say all this cause piggybacking off this topic about heroes, if you want to go the route of giving single target attack diversity a buff to up single target damage, I'm going to get pissed if the DrK's option is Sacrifice and it makes our life even harder, yet isn't massively rewarding.
     
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  4. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    1 HP Sacrifice zerking would be the only way to save DK. Give it Corsair levels of DPM so I can skewer any boss who dares to have predictable attacks
     
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  5. -ovv
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    -ovv Skelosaurus

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    It's basically all tied to survivability. Mages/Bishops and Warriors are great starting classes. Shadowers and Buccs are probably the next step up since they have built in survivability (Meso Guard, Avoid, i-Frames, increased HP gain) but still require an appropriate level of washing to function optimally. Archers, Night Lords, and Corsairs are the last of the bunch due to their squishiness and time of wash, and washing is required to function optimally (note: washing is still optional because bloodwashing is still an option, but you will have gimped DPM, which is your primary or secondary purpose).

    Another note - personally, I think buccs are quite overtuned in their current situation because they tend to output a shit ton of effective DPM whilst also being tanky, easier to wash, cheap on pots, multipurposeful in support (SI/TL/Aggro Control), AND they are meta relevant. We only know this because people post in the DPM flex threads. How long will it be until these threads are completely abandoned because end game players fear they will be used to justify their class nerfs? (Hint, it's probably already happening)

    There is no singular goal, which is why it's best to balance things holistically. A new player might eventually get to level 200, or they might quit after getting to 2nd job. A well designed game will be fun and rewarding at all steps. For a new player starting with 0 NX, I think they'd have a much easier time starting with any of the entry level classes than going the longer Alyosha wash (Alyowasha) route. You don't need to gimp your early level progression much with excessive INT, you can complete your wash before you even get to bossing levels, and you aren't as time restricted because your wash to 30k can be done with about 4 months of voting daily. Going by Alyosha's progression, his Corsair's 'early game' (levels 1-120) took almost a year - with no leech and 140 base INT - and with all the knowledge of efficient grinding/playstyles. How long does it take a new player to get a warrior to 140+? Presumably a lot less time (minus the inefficiencies of just being a new player, of course), and they're capable of bossing without washing at all.

    Another thing - messing up an entry level character is much more fixable than the others - warriors even more so with their ridiculous hp:mp conversion rate.

    Bowmasters buffer a directional while hurricaning and have a very small window of time to reposition properly and begin hurricaning again or they risk falling off the platform and losing out on something like 2m dpm. They also cannot pot while in Hurricane (and for a few frames after hurricane is stopped), and autopot failures happen much more frequently just by the nature of their skill.

    Surviving as a DK while zerking requires you to either buy sushis and pot when autopot fails, or do math (not really) to decide which pot to use to keep you safe and below 16.5k. You have the entire duration of iframes + attack cooldown to repot when that happens. You can also pot while in the middle of any of your attacks, and you have skills like stance, achilles, and beholder to keep you safe. I think MrPresident opted to not even use autopot altogether.

    Mechanically difficult? Not if you compare it to actual skill-based games. But there is a difference in effort required between the classes.
     
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  6. faithie
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    faithie Mano

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    There are quite a few points you have mentioned here, so I will attempt to break your points down

    1) If brandish were to be buffed to "110% x 260% at single target", would that then be too OP for the hero when comparing it to the Pally counterpart (seeing that their dpm doesn't really differ in single neutral boss targets)?
    Reply: Imo no, the 5% gap is bigger than you seem to think:
    - 1. a mid game gear comparison would be ~6-7wa, and end game gear comparison would be ~10-11wa to cover the 5% gap
    - 2. 5% damage is almost essentially an echo, or a little bit more than a mw20 to mw30 buff
    - 3. end game players strive to improve their mechanical gameplay to improve their dpm by 5%
    you might then add that in a squad, or in the bigger picture, 5% damage output from a single player may not amount to much, but my point is to make heroes more relevant from a theoretical standpoint with regards to recruitments in single target dpm heavy bosses. Therefore, the above points stand. Furthermore, 5% damage when you are attempting lesser man boss runs then make increasing differences to the speed of the run. So, I still think that heroes ought to be buffed either via damage, or via utility as dan (-ovv) has earlier mentioned.

    1.1) If (1) is true, then Heroes are almost equal to Pallies
    Reply: Probably true if there are more neutral bosses than elemental weak bosses. But not really in this server, so Pallies' elemental boost is relevant in this server.

    2) On HT

    2.1) "But as I recall now, Heroes can currently cleave an arm and a head without causing mass sed. As pallies HH is map wide, its not possible to HH without triggering mass sed."
    Reply: Heroes likely not causing mass sed is for the most part going to be true. They aren't going to be cleaving LA on the left side because they will likely be permanently positioned to cleave LH and MH; they are also supposed to be positioned to cleave MH and RH (with the jump positioning trick) for the most part on the right. But if this is not the case, such that the Hero positions him/herself to cleave RH and RA, then it is likely also going to be safe, as they won't be hitting RA for as long as you would think they will be - once RH goes down, Heroes will be on either side's top platform to hit MH.
    However, Heroes still have a chance to "cause mass sed". For instances, single target dpm on RH isn't high enough; the run having more than one cleave (being the hero here), i.e. an AM; or two very strong bishops; the sed shad being unable to tank heads/not confident to sed on top platforms and thus cleaving RA heavily whilst factoring in the previous points - and perhaps even being really strong for a shad. Then, yes, dpm on arms is still dpm on arms after all, and a Hero's cleave damage may cause mass sed. So all of these points taken into consideration doesn't necessarily mean that a Hero can definitely cleave an arm and a head without causing mass sed. It's all up to how the run goes.
    Reply 2: I don't see why Pally HH being map wide would cause any problem with mass sed, unless, again, there exist the above points, or some of them. But to say that "its not possible to HH without triggering mass sed" is largely going to be an overstatement of HH damage. It's definitely not going to be stronger than an AM cleave (even a lvl 155 semi-decently geared one), and AMs are reasonably viable in squads if they/the host(s) know what they are doing when accounting for dpm lines [but this is a topic for another day]. My point being, HH is not going to affect a Pally's viability in HT because it is too strong, as you would put it.

    at this point, here is a pictorial calculation by Edann the mathematician
    upload_2022-5-13_5-36-6.png

    2.1) Heroes > Pallies in HT as a result since Pally single target dpm will be negligible due to the 110% brandish buff that I have suggested for.
    Reply: I think that this has been answered in (1), but to restate, 5% more than a hero is still reasonably more damage. Also, Pally single target dpm doesn't lose to a BM on equal gear in preheads pre-lvl180ish (wherein the average geared BM would have sufficiently good avoid) because of the knockbacks. Pallies have stance. And for this matter, Heroes will then be slightly more viable in the hosts' accounting for single target damage i.e. preheads for this instance.

    3) If, then, the "5% weaker than Pally" is still considered a big gap in damage, most people would still not pick hero for their very sweaty low-man runs (6 man HT or 18-20 man PB) as that low damage will continue to grief in such situations.
    Reply: I beg to differ for HT specifically as Heroes are reasonably decent in being able to actually cleave (albeit not the current meta still, but yes, viable). As for lesser man PB runs, yes, I agree that Heroes probably still won't be accepted due to the meta method of dealing with the boss (unless the Hero really is stacked enough to dish out Pally equivalent damage including making up for damage on right bird with Pallies' elemental boost on it).

    3.1) If its the usual 10-12 man HT, or 30 man PB, I believe Heroes are already accepted. In that case, I'm not sure what this damage boost is attempting to solve - in regards to having Heroes getting accepted
    Reply: 10-12 man HT, yes. 30 man PB, yes, either because the Heroes are friends, hence being tolerable; or the run just needing a last minute substitute, or not having enough people at all; or the hero just being stacked. But on the last point, no current squad is going to actually go "oh my, this Hero is stacked, let's recruit him/her to PB". I'm certain that there are three or less Heroes actually PBing now.
    My intention here is to buff Heroes' dpm such that it is theoretically more sound for a PB host to decide to take the Hero - it is not to replace a traditional ranged attacker with a Hero. The damage boost is attempting to solve the balance issues revolving around Heroes' undesirability with regards to single target bosses, to making them at least a viable pick. But again, dan (-ovv) has put across a strong point that instead of buffing Heroes' dpm, perhaps a utility buff would be more sound, which I agree. And to add, why not both actually?
     
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  7. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    I don't even do HT or PB and I can say we're both being some level of hyperbolic. That said, BM will deal somewhere near twice my whole bossing damage while being similarly difficult, sometimes*. Depends on boss. Depends on a lot of things. Maybe BM is harder at HT, but how about PB? Or Nib, Nameless, Verg, Krex, Zak, JC, Boss, Toad, etc..... Everyone has to stop inputting to heal. If you press heal while making inputs, your inputs will stop. I guess BM has to stop longer. That's a hard thing to abstract into mechanical difficulty comparisons. Trading achilles/stance for 180% damage and 40% avoid is a trade i'd easily make all things else left untouched. Assuming people would be willing to adjust behaviors like DKs getting relegated to right side of zak so bish's can heal spam MapleF3

    We're way off topic. Sorry. Personally I think mechanical complexity beats out investment requirements massively in terms of giving advantages to classes. Which is why I will be upset if corsair is ever not the highest theoretical DPM. And personally, I'd like to see them be the highest practical DPM too. Which I think they are on some bosses but not others. They're probably fine. It's more an issue of why the fuck do NLs do more damage than BM?

    So ya hero should be the bottom feeder class, it's the easiest class. It'd be nice if they had a utility that made them desired still though. edit: Give Heroes HB and rebalance DKs to be edgelord zerkers. 8)
     
  8. -ovv
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    -ovv Skelosaurus

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    My level 157 dk outdamages my level 200 BM in JC because of cleave. The highest DK DPM 45 in HT (BigFatJiJi - 12.3m) beats out the highest BM DPM 45 (Serperior - 9.3m, uncontested by 1.5m dpm) by 3m. And I'm confident there is way more room out there to inflate DK dpm and effectiveness for run time by ignoring the conventional meta (full damage on wings/arm/head cleave when MH cancel). (https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/ht-dpm45-flex-thread.28721/page-7)

    For PB, BMs need to react to DR within 15 frames or about half a second to the very first visible 1 that shows, or they die. (https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...ricane-rapid-fire-with-dr-in-pink-bean.41801/)

    DKs can use pots during their crusher animation without stopping their attack or blocking their next input. All you have to do is let go of your crusher key and press pot mid-attack. You can't manually pot or acp during hurricane (you can feed pet though, for some reason). You need to let go, wait a few frames, pot, then start hurricane back up. Every second you delay this, you lose out on about 200k+ dpm, and sometimes the pot doesn't activate because you potted too soon before hurricane stops, so you get stuck in hurricane start up animation without having potted. :V

    I don't think you understand what you're asking for. A 90% stance is what gives warriors their dpm efficiency. Reducing your effective dodge rate by ~50% for 80% more damage is a terrible trade-off, especially for melee characters that rely heavily on positioning during boss fights. Sure, you'll do higher damage lines, but you're going to be hitting air way more often.
     
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  9. noobonmove
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    noobonmove King Slime

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    Heroes do not need a buff at all, if anything our shout damage needs a buff. ^+^
    I am satisfied with the way heroes are.
     
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  10. TWW
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    TWW Brown Teddy

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    HOLY BASED!!! Heroes stink like shitty shit shitXatSmile
     
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  11. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    There's alot of new infos to process for me. Thanks alot for taking your time to write very detailed explanations, which helps alot considering there's quite alot of HT and PB stuffs that I don't know myself.
    Based on your reply, you feel that 5% is significant damage, so I'm going to skip most of the debates where the assumption that 5% damage difference is insignificant.

    Regarding this picture, are you implying that due to knowing how mass sed will happen, HH and cleave can freely hit arms? In that case why isn't cleave and archmages in meta?
    ^ I'm not doing a debate on this, but a real genuine lack of knowledge on my end.

    Won't be touching on HT for this time as I have no idea why cleave isn't in meta yet.
    Based on my understanding of PB based on your reply, pallies are strong against wings and mediocre against PB. Is it correct to assume pally's main job is to take down the wings? Like how Heroes deal with zak arms. In that case, how is hero able to slot in as a second option?

    I guess this is where my main concern here is.
    My believe is that, DPM requirements is very similar to HP washing. Warriors have 30k HP easily, similar to how NLs and Corsairs have easily the highest damage in the server.
    6.5k HP was the old standard. Now 12k is the standard. And in future people, this goalpost will keep moving, people will want more and more, and ends up its 30k hp or bust, even if 15k hp is perfectly playable (techincally 9k HP NL in PB is perfectly playable too, but no one wanna be a ninja and dodge everything)
    What I feel is, its the same for damage. You can shift this goalpost now, some people will think, yeah, this is acceptable, even if most don't agree. Then later some day, a new meta appear. Or a new boss appear. Suddenly this or that class is weak af again despite having 0 class balance changes (bucc received no single target buffs DPM for past 3 years, went from worst class to one of the top now) and now we need to buff more damage. And this goal post will keep moving, until every class is close to NL's damage. Then suddenly, NLs and corsairs needs buffing again, and the cycle continues.

    TLDR: I believe the lack of damage is subjective. While your objectively lack of damage may be correct, I only believe its to the extend of low-man count runs, and not contents in general. This sentiment of lacking damage is purely due to having differences in damage (why BMs feel inferior compared to NLs?) and not because the damage itself is low.

    Just my opinion, but buffing panic's damage is equivalent to buffing single target damage. Unless this panic provides any form of dispel, debuffing boss, or additional buff to wa/avoid/hp/etc, i don't think it qualifies as a utility
     
  12. KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    If we follow that logic NL should be the weakest class in the game, but sadly that's how old school is.
    People bee talking here about how hero is bad on the current meta and they kinda are, DK is not that much better tho. They both are on the same boat, just one can press a button every 155 secs (easily mulable).
    I don't know if its because PB is a thing now, if you see a DK there is most likely an HB mule; or is it because cleave is bad now in HT, mass seduce is just a bad mechanic if you ask me, I mean we all avoid doing too much dmg to the arm so when we do get mass seduce is when is the safest, and at that point is nothing but padding on a boss that already has quite a lot of it, so mass seduce could be removed? perhaps then Hero and DK can be somewhat ok after? I don't know.
    And if all gets fixed we can go back to debate about DK and why Berserk is a bad skill. Why wait discord me anytime I'm always up to have a talk.
     
  13. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    I think DK and hero are still fine at HT. Which is to say, they're still fine at content that genuinely allows you to cleave for a large portion of the fight. CWKPQ, JC, HT. But this isn't a great portion of the end game content. And it's not THE end game content either. But the meta shift also has impacts on economy, which is inflating the price of Mw20 and making HT more valuable... I don't think anything is dire yet, but it would be nice to see some shifts into better directions instead of this dark road that points to class irrelevancy.
     
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  14. yurain
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    yurain Capt. Latanica

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    From the HT DPM45 thread, the cleave's damage in HT is very very respectable as long as you know what you are doing.
    Cleave is also key in CWKPQ, which sadly is off meta now due to the lack of coins compare to other bosses.
    You also have muscleuncle who pick and choose his content as a hero. Single handly destorying scarga with his hero everyday selling 9/14m hats.

    Literally the only content not suitable for cleave is PB, which is the prime content right now. This is a content problem and not a class issue. Just do some changes to the minibeans and cleave would be vital to the run (maybe replace AM? hope not). Actually, NT is also kinda meh for hero cleave hmm.

    Cleave plays a different role compared to the single targeted attackers, which it should be.
    You just can't play a cleave and say, why you can't do out do other single damage attacker in single damage. It just don't work that way.
     
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  15. KurayamiLove
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    Unless you can melt the arm when it's low HP you don't want these guys around cleaving and if you want to 1vs1 just play Paladin or any other class that does it better. CWKPQ is the only part they are useful, in Zaku too perhaps. I would like if HT or bossing got a bit more value since welp the endgame is mage spam, but welp all we can do is wait and see, if only they didn't make bosses more ̶a̶n̶n̶o̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ challenging cleave would be a thing, even then you would be only gaining HT as something else to do.
    The way both jobs are balanced is ok in a way, they are just not meta anymore altho I still think DK as a concept is highly flawed, I suggested changes but they are not happening.
     
  16. -ovv
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    -ovv Skelosaurus

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    You can cleave heads in HT on both sides.
     
  17. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    Cleave is trash and DPM 45 in Horntail have cursed cleave classes to live on copium forever.

    Let's break down Horntail into its components instead of worshiping 45 minutes like it's anything other than half of the fight. If anything it's measuring cleave's best part of the fight against ranges' worst.

    We're going to compare a well geared Hero/DK to a well geared Night Lord.

    Preheads - 30 minutes:
    Hero/DK: 7mil dpm
    NL: 10mil dpm

    Main Body - 45 minutes:
    Hero/DK: 11mil dpm
    NL: 8mil dpm

    Clearing the rest(remaining hp on mh/arms) - 15 minutes
    Hero/DK: 6.5mil dpm
    NL: 9mil dpm

    Total: 90 minutes - now we average the total DPM across the whole run to get a real measurement of how cleave stacks up:
    Hero/DK: 8.91mil dpm
    NL: 8.824mil dpm

    That tends to be my experience after like 600 HT entries, with 80% of them being cleave. They aren't better than an equally geared NL, and in fact they come with notable drawbacks for the rest of the run. Rushing down Wings does very little for overall time, as it is the death of heads that increases ranged dps the most overall within the fight. 5 ranged characters focusing down heads increases dpm gain over the course of the fight while cleave takes that dpm early for flashy numbers. A Hero/DK not only decreases the rate at which dpm is increased, but also notably lowers their dpm by 1-3% depending on how quickly the ranged character can use their all-cures. A run utilizing no cleave other than bishop will tend to use ~40 all-cures in total, while including one increases that number to 150-200.

    In it's current state, cleave is undeniably bad, even in Horntail, the piece of content that is personally tailored to the class.
     
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  18. -ovv
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    -ovv Skelosaurus

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    The active arms situation is quite a big downside for cleave at the moment, but it can be somewhat avoided by having cleave start on left side with LH/MH. The trick to getting onto right platform to be able to cleave MH/RH is fairly easy to pick up/replicate quickly as well, and AFAIK, right arm doesn't activate while you're on that lower top platform (for head cleaves).

    I think 'undeniably bad' is a bit of an exaggeration. They're comparable to other classes but don't really excel in the stages they're meant to excel in, which is pretty meme (something like only 30% time on 2x targets). The pre-head to three-head meta is too safe all around which makes any sort of risk-taking an extremely unpopular path. That should be changed :^)
     
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  19. MELO
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    MELO Orange Mushroom

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    hero and dk
    More than 1 monster, dmg unchanged

    There is only one monster, dmg*(1.1~1.2)

    Paladin dmg*(1.05~1.1)

    I think it's a normal buff for poor cleavers
     
  20. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    Ya'll care a lot about HT when it's not the only priority. CWKPQ is also great, and HT is probably fine to always have 1 DK or Hero right? Not a party full of them, but 1 is good. The real copium life support status is being able to participate in any optimizing PB without being muled to save splits. The big bad boss of the entire gamestate is designed as such that a subset of classes are nearly so weak that lower leveled ungeared mages can be more effective. That's a more alarming pattern to me, that I could level a shitty mage to 175 and be more useful than tens of billions geared DK/Hero. (While the effort required to zerk effectively on PB is... Unlike any other) Maybe it's a delusion of mine to think that the big bad final boss with the most valuable drops and steepest requirements of participation would be fairly approachable by all.
     
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