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Making HP Washing Truly Optional - a Solution

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Skuire, Apr 25, 2021.

Do you think implementing this system would be good for the future of MapleLegends?

  1. Yes

    250 vote(s)
    83.3%
  2. No

    20 vote(s)
    6.7%
  3. Maybe

    30 vote(s)
    10.0%
  1. HollyCrap
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    HollyCrap Capt. Latanica

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    so the thread is dead now
     
  2. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    There IS reason. You can showoff 'hey i have 15k hp lulz' and think yourself a POG NL so feel less guilty (or not at all) for being carried actually while other guys doesn't care af for your hp unless you die and ask bishes/buccs leave/join pty like hell for resurrect.

    Having awesome goal and trying hard for it, itself is not a problem. What real problem is, burdening other guys for selfish purpose, I think. Recently I lost 2 friends just because of this reason (they felt bad for me criticizing their selfish attitudes and I wasn't tolerant enough to babycare them), this comes to me much closer.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. boldaslove
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    boldaslove Dark Stone Golem

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    I'll read this later when I have a little more energy but ty for taking the time to make this write up!
     
  4. HollyCrap
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    HollyCrap Capt. Latanica

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    2021 is filled with babies smh
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  5. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    Dead like all good Sku suggestions. QUEST RING.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  6. Althariisa
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    Althariisa Slimy

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    only new players suggestions can survive on this world.
     
  7. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    I like this but I think it should become available at 100, not 130.
     
  8. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    I think the majority seems to agree to should be lower level, even Sku himself :)


     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. TrickTrack
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    TrickTrack Horny Mushroom

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    I don't see why we can't also code HP washing like another server out there *Cough* that actually gives a random amount upon HP washing but never below the intended amount. For example a warrior's wash is:

    -4 MP to gain +16 HP

    On Legends you gain 16 HP and lose 4 MP and that is the end of it. However on the other server it doesn't show it but its random and looks more like this:

    -4 MP to gain +16-22 HP

    Why can we not also implement that?
     
  10. HollyCrap
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    HollyCrap Capt. Latanica

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    HP wash is already like that if you use fresh AP, you only get fixed 16 if you dont use fresh AP
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Nightz
    Online

    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Moderator Post
    These are the formulas for warriors on Legends

    HP Gained from Fresh AP (with Max HP): 50-54 hp
    HP Gained from Fresh AP (without Max HP): 20-24 hp
    HP Gained from Stale AP: 20 hp
    MP Lost from AP Resetting: -4 mp

    So no clue where you got your numbers from but they are wrong.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  12. Camazotz
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    Camazotz Pink Teddy

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  13. OP
    OP
    Skuire
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    Skuire Nightshadow

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    Hey guys, it's been a while so I'd like to cover a few more points I've heard made:

    8. Players who opted for the quest method to gain HP in late-game will be discouraged and disappointed when they realize they could have had way more HP in the end, had they washed normally.

    My initial vision for the full benefit of the quest was a cap of ~9.5k base HP for ranged attackers, based on Akash's optional-washing thread. Currently, with over 2k HP available from gear, this puts our endgame quest HP projection (with no supplementary washing after the fact) at just under 12,000. This is far above the bare minimum and in my opinion a perfectly respectable amount of HP to bestow upon someone who chose to forgo advanced planning in favor of simple enjoyment.

    One thing I particularly like about the solution I proposed is how it pushes the "question" of HP washing to a much later level. I've observed that players are usually presented with the washing conundrum in earnest around Lv40-50. If you're able to tell them they'll be alright and don't need to worry about washing right away, then you can push back that question to third or even fourth job. By then, players will be much more likely to possess the game knowledge and experience required to evaluate their goals and expectations, such as:

    How much HP do I need?
    How much HP do I want?
    What's the best way to gain the amount of HP that I want?
    Should I make a different character/another character?
    Should I make more accounts and vote on them, in case I want an additional, heavier-washed character in the future?
    And, of course:

    What would be the most fun?

    TL;DR:
    • A full power 12k HP ranged attacker is nowhere near being a liability.
    • Truly optional washing pushes back the heavy knowledge burden that HP washing demands, giving players more time to plan and realistically evaluate their goals, without overwhelming or discouraging them right out of the gate.
    • You can vote on as many accounts as you like. It's free, it supports MapleLegends, and it's not going away anytime soon. Just start voting on a couple more accounts, and your PogNL with 20k HP is already halfway to reality. Point is, choosing one method doesn't preclude you from the other.
    9. Telling non-INTed players that they have to do a daily quest that takes 15-30 minutes each day for over 200 days is hardly better than telling them they'll need to vote for 4-6 months to have an endgame ranged attacker with competent HP.

    The biggest and most obvious difference here is that you actually get to play as your character. I mentioned earlier that, currently, the only jobs who really get to fight at their full potential from Lv1 to Lv120+ AND still have a bright future are Warriors, Bandits, and Mages. The rest are wash-locked if you want them to have decent HP in the future (which you do, because why wouldn't you?). You can play as a 120 base INT Assassin, and it's certainly possible, but giving up twenty-four (24) levels worth of power is a thoroughly unenjoyable experience, triply so for a new and unfunded player who lacks any gear or game knowledge.

    Do note that the goal here is to make the quest a viable option for those who simply wish to play the game. If it's too easy/hard, we can tweak it. If it's too overpowered, we can nerf it. If it takes too long, we can adjust the requirements. If the quest is not rewarding enough to justify the time spent, we can make it more worth doing. Ideally, most of this balancing can be hammered out before the actual implementation.
    10. Washing culture is not a problem with the game, but a problem with the players.


    It's absolutely natural that nobody would ever want to willingly hamstring their character with pathetic HP so that they can just barely eke by endgame bosses at Lv200 with some unholy combination of HP gear, blood washing, and "just dodge bro" tactics.

    Why the hell would you choose such a miserable life when you could have 2-3x the HP through washing? To any player, having a washed attacker appears to be the key to actually enjoying the endgame. It's, ostensibly, the thing you need to do to have fun.

    The public perception of actual endgame HP requirements has indeed been warped and perverted by the prevalence of Mega-INTlords (along with their proclivity to flex their HUUUUUUUUUUUGE numbers). But is the fetishization of heavy washing the sickness itself, or just a symptom?​
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 10
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    You do realize that after people get to 12k hp, they then move onto the next subject of complaining about pot burn? It's an endless cycle.

    I'm personally in favor of gating the floor value of HP until even later levels (150+) when they'd actually require it. Giving low leveled ranged characters a way to by-pass the struggle of grinding with low HP throws off the balance of the game. Sure, leeching does this too, but that's a different set of problems.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. OP
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    Skuire
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    Skuire Nightshadow

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    Good thing we don't have a staff team of weenies who capitulate to every unreasonable request.

    Would you elaborate on how the "balance of the game" is thrown off by INTless low level ranged characters? Assassins are extremely powerful, but they can only hit one target at a time. Hunters are decent, Crossbowmen are pretty average. Gunslingers are like Assassins but weaker and with a few neat skills. Meanwhile, Magicians have been Magicians since the beginning: zero gear/funding required to be strong, great movement, cheap grinding. Where's the extra imbalance that would be incurred, and what's the detriment it would have on the game?

    EDIT: For some reason my brain completely skimmed over the "low HP" part, but still I don't see what you mean. A couple hundred or even thousand HP really isn't gonna make much difference in 3rd job grinding.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. eliyuh
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    eliyuh Mushmom

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    There you go again with using imaginary “people” doing something, also imaginary, to prove a point lol.

    The only time you’d actually struggle with low HP is at a map like himes and that maps pretty dead anyway. Regardless, this “struggle” is very insignificant, not to mention as it’s already been stated several times, getting HP from this quest will take a long time, it’s not like someone’s gonna be able to get +2k hp around lv 70.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. TBBT
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    TBBT Blue Snail

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    Instead of coding a custom daily quest, why not give 5 MP (value subject to change) for every existing quest? This would revive all the old quests that most people don't do instead of doing 100-200 days of custom daily quests.
    For the already completed quests, perhaps you could implement using @checkstats to check the quest count and credit the MP automatically?
    Sorry if someone already suggested this didn't scroll through all pages.
     
    • Creative Creative x 7
    • Like Like x 1
  18. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Maybe it's because I come from boomer maple even prior to the existence of HP washing, but back in the days, auto-hp actually cost money and was an extreme luxury, NLC pots didn't exist, and hp management was a core balance to the game. Imagine a world where 3rd job had just been released, Ludibrium was the latest world with mobs hitting 1.2k touch damage (when previously, everyone was used to grinding at Coolies), and no NLC pots existed (unagi was your best only friend). Lvl 80+ grind parties became the norm at grims, with priests dedicated to healing and HSing. It was optimal at the time to roam clear together as a group because pot burn during grinding was a huge factor without a dedicated priest healing everyone. Then platform/safe spot mobbing kicked in with Vikings and thus established a new role for lower hp ranged characters. Back then, people adapted to the challenges they were given, and the hp floor of ranged characters was just that - a challenge. Anything that dealt damage higher than the natural gain of HP was considered content just not meant for them. Back then, HP washing was not optional because it didn't even exist.

    Now -- in terms of MapleLegends balance, the paradigm has shifted and everybody feels entitled to all content released because some players have washed their characters enough to allow for that content. Now to be frank, I'm not against this new way of thinking - I think it would suck if you were told by MapleLegends Staff that a certain HP threshold was adequate for all content and you calculated your goals to accommodate for that - only to find out later that that wasn't the truth, and you were now stuck, content-locked because of your static lvl 200 hp. However, I do think that it's becoming a bit tiresome when the goal posts of the HP washing arguments are constantly being pushed further and further back (reference aforementioned thread about pot burn). The hyper-normalization of cultures in this game are fairly prevalent, and it magnifies the entitlement of new players all the more.

    Back on topic - we are currently in a culture where washing is extremely normalized. In 2019, 10k hp was considered fully washed for all worthwhile content (lul toad/BGA/pre-NT/aka bad/inefficient content). Now in 2021, 12k is considered baseline and 15k is standard, and there are many old players that stuck around that are aiming for much, much higher than that for various reasons. Nonetheless, these efforts are becoming hyper-normalized and in turn, the benefits of these extreme HP washing strategies are starting to become normalized as well. Some people think that they should be able to boss with less pot spend. Some others think that they should be able to grind at optimal locations without the fear of dying due to auto-pot failure. (Have fun going through that HP washing thread :)). The reality is, a lot of different people want different things. Balancing around that is hard as fuck.

    My thesis: Giving players the option to choose between the 5 classes with non-factor drawbacks is imbalance in itself. It will incentivize a future population that historically chooses the highest damage dealer (or situationally meta, the most desired class).

    And to finally answer your question - I don't think ranged characters should be able to automatically survive most bossing content without HB, simple as that. When new players in Legends start understanding that the fundamental aspects of this game revolve around specialization, it usually starts with bossing at Zakum. Your suggestion creates a hypothetical world where in large part, the new community will create attackers that are immediately given access to all mid-game content without any semblance of party play. I don't want to see every new player create a hermit that can do full damage at lvl 135 with enough HP to face tank every boss with zero regards to party play, or the consequences lack thereof.

    Ultimately, I think the best resolution around this whole "washing is optional" debate is to allow for in-game options for temporary HP boosts that will benefit the player for that specific content. Pink Bean was the latest addition to the game that sparked this controversy, yet we found out fairly quickly that the required HP isn't 26k, or 18.5k, or even 12k, depending on the competency of that group. Wheels that allow for revival are purchased goods and were initially seen as an absolute necessity for the first few runs, but the reality is that these are not necessities and are simply quality of life improvements/insurance for player skill issues. Assuming that [insert x amount of min hp at lvl 200] is the minimum that qualifies Legends to be a washing optional server, I think the best move is to allow for means to achieve that minimum additional HP for that specific content, rather than changing the approach to base HP/HP washing as a whole.

    A final digression - I always say that one of MapleLegend's greatest features is the active staff support behind the scenes that make this community feel so tightly knit. Lately, I've been understanding it to also be a double-edged sword, where every complaint is expected to be acknowledged, and any type of balance or fundamental change can/and will be controversial and yield a mixed - and often annoying - communal response. This is the paradox of the collective progress of the many, and a dampener on leadership growth altogether.

    When a change gets implemented, especially one that impacts the fundamentals of the entire server, there are a lot of hypotheticals that need to be considered. I usually don't like responding to new players when their arguments seem to be based on patronization or naivete, but I thought it might be worthwhile to point out.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Work Great Work x 2
    • Creative Creative x 1
  19. eliyuh
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    eliyuh Mushmom

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    If it's "hypothetical" then why do you word it like this?
    Call me a "new player" and "naivete" all you want lol, if you don't have an answer what I said just say that. I don't know how you quoted Skuire with that gigantic wall of text and still somehow managed to not answer the question at all.
    How does it throw off the balance of the game?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

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