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Modify Neo Tokyo Staves and Wands

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Nicholas, Jul 9, 2020.

  1. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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  2. Vowels
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    Vowels Slimy

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    Having LUK does perform well in some situations, the more LUK you have, the less EXP you lose when you die. It's a viable build for all those players that always forget to magic guard and never have charms. While LUKless mages mald about losing 10%, the LUK mages laugh at them and are superior when dead. It's only fair that LUKless mages are superior when alive.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    Honestly, just replace the "they" with LUK mage, and you will see why LUK mage need something to help them. It is about helping LUK mage to be viable as compare to its counterpart. The fix to LUK mage, is not make the LUK mage go LUKless.

    Basically this. Neoxn broke the mage roadmap with the element wands that doesnt require any LUK, so people will gacha with real money because it is OP compare to the orginal mage roadmap. The community then screamed OP but of course money wins everything. The idea used to be that mage can be LUKless but they only can equip the maple weapons. Their late game damage is made up with the additional INT they have over the LUK mage. Then elemental wands came and blow everything out of the water.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    Even with maple staves lukless is better. This has nothing to do with ele wands x)
     
  5. joota
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    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

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    DaydreamerDaydreamer I think a big assumption is that everyone cares about DPM. Some people are here to make a character and level it in a chill manner without caring about DPM, so Luk mages are equally viable for a different playstyle.

    But also let's see how viable luk mages are for dpm...

    Let's consider a luk mage who wants to use an elemental staff. This requires 165 luk. We start with base luk at 4. From common equips you can currently get :
    -23 luk from HTP
    -10 luk from t10 ring
    -12 luk from event rings
    -6 luk from event glasses
    -19 luk from targa helmet
    That's 70 luk already in equips. Now make your base luk 30 to get 100 luk and wear magician overalls and shoes to get 12 extra luk. You're now at 112 luk. Now add 46 more points into luk to get 76 base luk. With mw20, now you have 82 (from equips) + 76 (from base) + 7 (from mw20) to get 165 luk. But look at that. That means you're down 72 points in luk you could have added to int. But check this out, you get 8 int from the overall/shoes (without even needing to scroll), 33 extra tma from Ele Staff (compared to Ele Wand). Doing the maths, compared to a luk-less mage, as a luk mage you are only 31 tma lower.

    This is the tma difference between a f/p 1 hitting petri and an i/l 1 hitting petri. So you can just pretend that you wanted to to do the damage of an I/L but chose a luk f/p instead to do the damage a luk-less i/l would do. I promise for the most part, no one will look down on your damage for having 31 less tma than your fellow luk-less mages.

    Oh and also who can forget the utility of luk builds:
    -136 extra weapon defense
    -69 extra magic defense
    -Almost 50 more avoid
    -lower exp % reduction if/when you die due to extra luk

    If anything, this post has made me think that luk mages are very viable if you care about reducing pot cost without sacrificing too much dpm.

    Edit: if you add in the luk from a third event ring and the fisherman flag from summer events, that brings the tma difference between luk and lukless mages to about 15.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  6. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    I don't think relying on event equips to make this comparison is really fair. Not everybody plays during those events or had time to get the items. They also eventually expire so the tma difference is going to fluctuate based on what event is going on at the time. If every event gave the same level of stats then I could agree with adding them but this past anniversary event had a lot of all stat items that I don't think other events will have. On top of that a lukless mage can also wear a 5 int clean overall (level 38 starlight robes) and 4 int from YSS which gives 9 int compared to the luk mages 16 int from those slots. In the end I'd say they're about 50 tma lower which is 9-10 levels and can be pretty significant. They do get other benefits like you said though but I'm not sure how much we can really consider some extra defense and more avoid (especially if they can't get over 250 avoid anyways).
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    A serious luk mage would chaos scroll their untradable items :p. But yes, they are weak enough to where building luk mage is a serious liability. But it isn't anything that can't be overcome with gears and levels. If you are just going to farm, a luk mage can 1hit the same monsters a lukless mage can.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    Just to clarify NiseNise, the quote you used was my paraphrasing AlyoshaAlyosha 's argument for why we shouldn't buff luk mages (i.e the argument can be used to oppose all balancing changes).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    You're gonna needa come harder than that f3. Consider the extremely obtainable items that is offered to all mages, and influx in mass into the economy each year:
    https://maplelegends.com/lib/equip?id=1382039
    https://maplelegends.com/lib/equip?id=1372034
    https://maplelegends.com/lib/equip?id=1382012
    https://maplelegends.com/lib/equip?id=1382009
    Bishops that HT eventually learn how to survive, and as you level up you eventually have enough hp that this 250 hp (100 more than a lukless mage can get) is basically useless compared to the FAT stack of magic attack you're giving up (especially when you have an hp pet item, and hp face mask, and a decent mb ring). I've also posted a separate forum explaining that hp should be added to luk mage items to compensate (just a bit) for the loss of mp, and thus hp and mp washes lost, from having luk.

    Leave the hp AND make it stronger LOL-- either way, this isn't giving luk mages much ground agains lukless mages.
     
  10. OP
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    I also agree with Mr. President, assuming a player is stakked with event items is not fair, especially considering once those expire in a few months you can't wear your gear anymore, and any players that joined after or didn't participate in the event don't get these items. You also assumed the player uses targa hat (luk) instead of (int) which is unfair and that lukless mages don't get int on their shoes (YSS is an option). Moreover, all mages get 59-60 luk from essentials, meaning lukless mages can wear up to level 48/58 robes. Now use this more realisitc calculation:

    23 luk- HTP
    10 luk- T10 ring
    17 - Targa (int)
    5 - golden soul cape
    This puts you at 59 luk (4 base), meaning you need to add 41 more luk to equip level 98/100 gear. This gear will net you, favoring maximal stat gain in the end
    +5 luk overall
    + 4 luk shoe
    for a total of 9 luk (all overalls equally favor int and luk in the end).

    so we're sitting at 109 luk, and we can calculate that if we add 45 more luk we will have 90 base and mw will give +9 so we are now sitting at 163 luk and need to add in 2 more. So we end with 92 base luk. Now lets subtract the gains:

    Lukless mages can equip mage overalls with up to 6 int, meaning we only gained 2 int over lukless mages on the overall (max int clean is 8). Lukless mages can wear a shoe with 4 int, so the shoe we equip, with 5 int, nets us 1 int over lukless mages. finally, a max stat elemental wand will be around 33 less tma than a clean elemental staff, setting us as hiving 33+2+1= 36 magic attack compensation off of the 88 points added into luk we added, putting us at 52 points difference, But wait, remember that you put in 88 points into luk, instead of int, meaning you've lost +8 int off of your mw, so you're actually at a 60 TMA difference.

    That means AT BEST you're around 12 levels weaker than a lukless mage at any point in time. That's huge, and you really underestimate how detrimental that is to leeching, you're not going to 1 hit skeles until you're so high a level that it's insane. Most luk mages that are lower level than this won't even have a lot of these great items yet (T10 ring for sure), and so it's even worse than this earlier into the game or if you can't afford super good gear (which you probably can't because you're a weak ass luck mage). That's why most luk mages die out before reaching 163.

    Now to address your piddling remarks about additional stats, 160 wep def is 80 damage off an attack which is negligible, 69 is m.def is a silly thing to mention as it amounts to only 35 damage off a magic attack and you'll probably have at least 1500 magic defense in the mid game (so this is a speck), 50 avoid does NOTHING unless your hunting snails (see my post about raising luk avoid as an actual way to fix luk mages). And finally when you're asking a luk mage to spend 400k nx on ap resets to fix their damage you have no right to assume they don't have the nx to afford a god damn safety charm. Basically every player uses safety charms, and those who don't do it intentionally (they're very few). I haven't lost exp on my mage in YEARS, but even if you're dying once or twice a year and losing exp is NOTHING compared to the 10+ levels you're straight up losing in terms of damage.

    You gotta come harder than this.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I think we can all agree that the game is much harder as long as you're obstinately denying any ways of making it easier for yourself. What's a guy even supposed to do? Grind out the free 24 int/luk from the last event? Wait for 8-9 more free int/luk if the King Fisherman Pole comes back again? AFK grind til 175 at 5/6 so you can get to 1ko skellies?

    Or maybe we should suggest buffs to old gear that would do less for magic than what these event equips do. I know which one is easier.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Reading the arguments I'm beginning to lean on the side that no changes are necessary, though that could just be a reaction to hostile comments. It is weaker, sure, but lately it just feels like trying to force it into meta. Meta is fickle: itll switch sides to whatever is better, even if only 1% better. Not enough buffs and it wont matter, nobody will change. If it's even slightly better, lots of people will jump ship (likely by doing lukless and resetting into luk).

    The debate to me shouldnt be "they are weaker and thus must be buffed", because not every build option should be equal (nor can they ever actually be). What I want to see discussed better is 'why' they should be buffed. So far the argument sounds like one of protecting people who build wrong in a decades old game, or the good old "because it should be better" argument. It's much easier to argue and even to design for a separate class's relevancy than multiple build options within a class all being relevant. Basically every class has just one 'optimal' build; the closest we get to multiple is sword v bw pally or potentially even str v dex bucc.

    Perhaps the biggest skepticism towards buffs though is if we get that op nt2 hat, that could single handedly shoot luk mage into relevancy in optimized scenarios sickmush
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  13. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    You have made the fatal assumption that there is only one end-game play-style, when, in fact, there are two. Please refer to my comments on the first page regarding grinding versus bossing and how this is the solution to most of the issues around "broken builds". Also, please refer to my post on luk mage avoidability buff, which has much more behind it than this post. I haven't actually argued really in favor of the buff mentioned here, but there have been a lot of specious arguments as to why we don't need to change luk mages, so I have extensively put these arguments down.

    I have considerably doubts about the NT2 hat in light of even bigger doubts about timeless gear and face stompers.
     
  14. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    In reading this I actually couldn't decide what you meant. But based on the numbers, I would overtly suggest that your claim that buffing old mage gear would do less than event gear simply on the fact that you could actively choose to buff mage gear to be better. Moreover you cannot choose to buff event gear to be even better, because then you end up with every class getting buffed from the event gear (which is usually an avoided outcome).

    This entire post was mostly made in jest-- increasing tma by ~20 for one set of weapons that would only be useful for high level bishops on a build that wouldn't be the most profitable even with all of the buffs I have proposed in the past isn't exactly a useful thing to pursue, I just wanted to see what people would say. By contrast I would encourage you to (re)consider my proposed buffs to availability in another forum post :p, which would definitely have a noticeable impact on luk mages.
     
  15. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    You have made the fatal assumption that I havent read these threads. These are differences that should exist at the class level, or at best an SP build level. Buffs always sound nice to have, but I tend to vote on the side of conservatism in regards to changes, due to time it takes to design/implement and avoid unwanted side effects (abusability, accidentally changing an entire class dynamic, etc). Is luk mage a change that needs to exist to balance the class, or is it just fixing a few players' build decisons?
     
  16. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    This is a valid perspective, and it is the opposite of mine, so it is doubtful we would agree on changes, which is fine. However, I am very much of the mindset that we should expand the (viable) possibilities in the game, rather than keep them stagnant. You're welcome to hold the opposite opinion of course, but I think the game would me more enjoyable for more people if luk mages were something other than a failed build (especially since they are technically the default build lol).
     
  17. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    I don't think it is fair to count the event equipment as it are strictly time limited and there is no promise that next event is going to offer those same stats. I would even rule out MW20 to be fair, because we know how hard it is to get one. It is a thing that I want to remind everyone here again, not everyone is a end game player with (well) scrolled equip, T10 MBR, perf HTP, perf helm. New players do exist in this game (yes, they really exist, not low level char you see is a mule or an alt). Furthermore, if you are relying on (overpowered) event equip, to even attempt to bring LUK mage into the discussion, don't you think somewhere/something is already wrong?

    Honestly, if the end result is really only 31tma lower, we wont even be having such discussion anymore. Just 6 levels of damage for that non-BR look, it is worth it for an alt style. Sadly it is not, the closer count is 60tma (thanks for the calucation by Nicholas) and that is already pushing the limit with some perf items.

    Again we are not looking to say that LUK mage should be buffed to be on-par or even to be better than the LUKless mage. That will be bloody unfair to the all the LUKless mage out there.
    What we are saying this LUK mage are so bad right now, they are like the homeless on the street. Can we do something to make them not that bad, give them a shelter or something.
    Not every changes have to be meta defining, there can be changes made to fix certain things.

    It is a bit hard to catch your points here. But if you are saying the buff should be made to the old mage equips, instead of introduction event items to patch up the large gap for LUK mage.
    I would agree to it. Because LUK mage is a permanent character in the game, they dont only exist for 3/6 months during event. A proper fix would be to their line of equipments, instead of random and time based event equips.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  18. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    I feel like I need to say this. Since a lot of people have a LUKless mage somewhere for leech or whatever purpose.

    Any buffing LUK mage will not change the status quo that LUKless is superior for damage. Also, no one is asking for such drastic meta shifting buff to LUK mage.
    Now LUK mage is not even trash tier, they are out of the tier list. This is about getting the LUK mage to be even on the tier list in the first place.

    It is basically like, help the homeless get a shelter without paying additional taxes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  19. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    The damage difference between luk and lukless mage is less than dex/dexless sin and str/strless bowman. Just reset your stats like any other character. 100 LUK is like, 310k nx. Plus, a lot of job based equips are obsolete anyways. If you insist on using those equips then it only makes sense for your damage will be nostalgic as well.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  20. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    Sins and archers do use the endgame equips though, it's not purely dead content. They just min max to have as little of their secondary stat as possible.
     

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