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Modify Neo Tokyo Staves and Wands

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Nicholas, Jul 9, 2020.

  1. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    This exactly proves my point, though. In an absolute best case scenario where a LUK mage has completely min-maxed their character, got to level 163, got EVERY best in slot equip available including event-only equips, and has invested in MW20, LUK mage is still not viable. This is not even a fair comparison given that that this is only true for a very, very tiny amount of endgame players. It's hardly a "LUK" build if the best possible build doesn't even add LUK until level 150, rendering all other equips completely pointless. And in this scenario, a LUK mage is _still_ worse off than a LUKless mage by a noticeable difference. In my opinion, a level 163 LUK mage who went to the trouble to get every best in slot item including tier 10 ring should at least break even with a LUKless mage using a 130 and no rings or best in slot robes. And keep in mind your comparison is not even completely correct because as you say, a LUKless mage can already get 70 LUK (I had 43 LUK on my LUKless mage at level 100, to put this in comparison to somebody without even BiS gear). So the benefit from the shoes and robe is negligible.

    It's absurd to me that even if you pass 2 chaos scrolls on perfect shoes, and have perfect clean overall, staff, helm, etc. all BiS gear as a LUK mage you are STILL weaker than a LUKless mage using a wand with a 30 level lower requirement.

    EDIT: Even if LUK mage was slightly better (let's say 10 TMA) than LUKless at 163, this would not be "forcing LUK into the meta." At that point, the only thing a mage is getting from such a slight advantage is a negligible increase on DPS in bosses (lul mage bossing) and most players are essentially done with their mages at that point, being able to 1-hit their target mob. All such a buff would do is open up a new and refreshing way to play a mage and not make new players feel like they fucked their character by following what the character creation screen tells them to do ("Mages rely heavily on INT and LUK.")
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    We aren't in 2016 anymore. Back then, you'd probably be losing out on closer to ~80 magic by going for a luk mage and would be a major detriment to your damage. But there's been a lot of new equipment since then, like the t10 ring, Crimsonheart Cloak, and a revolving door of event equipment that is able to cut the difference between the mages in half. Luk mages have been getting buffed slowly over time, it's just that nobody bothers to notice it and just meme what's been said since 2016. I don't see how ~40 magic makes them unviable, you can always just smash out a few more levels and there aren't any major milestones you miss because of that.

    Saying luk mages are homeless only makes sense if luk-less mages live in some crack-den apartment complex in the shitty part of town. Really they're just upper middle class homeowners looking at the McMansions of lukless mages.
     
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  3. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The problem isn't that LUK mages suck. The problem is that Elemental Wands are OP for being LUKless, thus making all LUK-related content basically useless.

    Choosing to go LUK-mage knowing this information is willful ignorance just like it is willful ignorance to go STR-mage or Dex-mage.

    Newcomers have the opportunity to fix their mistakes of poor stat allocation by voting and AP resets. They're free options in this game.
     
  4. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    The best situation would be to remove elemental wands completely from the game, but that's not gonna happen.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    This is not true as mentioned in the previous post. I know a lot of high-level players, and the meta is the use of the high-level equips. Just look how much luk a lukless mage gets from the "meta items" in our calculations above. Classes like assassin and bowman get even more from their meta items (modulo htp vs mon, depending on the build one is better than the other for different classes). Without choice, players will have a lot of points in their secondary stats and they will be forced to scroll gear that gives more of it in many cases (scrolling helmet for dex or scrolling tops and bottoms for dex/luk). In the end, usually end up with players wearing lvl80-100 armor, and level 100-115 weapons (which is basically what luk mages do). You shouldn't even think about there being lowdex/dexless sins and low str/strless bowman, as you progress through the game and get better and better gear (gear that is scrolled lvl 80-100 armor) you get to naturally lower and lower your base secondary stat.

    Lukless mage is the cheaper and easier mage option from the beginning and only becomes expensive once you need to invest in your gear (but by that time you're selling 1hit skele leech and making up to 30m per hour if you've got mules).
     
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  6. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    I am glad that there had been buff for the LUK mage over the time. Maybe it would be more suitable for this discussion if it can be pointed out on what has been buffed, in case we missed it out since not all of us here were here since 2016.

    Again. I dont think event items should be taken into consideration for long term balance purpose, and the reason I have already stated before. 1. Time limited 2. No guarantee next event offers the same stats.

    And Again. It is not ~40tma. Honestly 40 tma difference is acceptable. But it is close to upwards of ~60 tma at least and that is already pushing it with (well) scrolled or perfect equip. As stated by Nicholas in the previous post.

    I dont think you understand the dex/dexless sin and str/strless bowman class and how they work. They go dexless/lukless (as much as possible) for the damage earlier then try to make up for the lack of secondary stats with scrolled eqiups. I would refain from talk about other class here in a thread on LUK mage, and also my lack of in depth knowledge regarding them.
     
  7. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    My claims:
    1. I compared a luk and lukless mage with a dex and dexless sin (or str and strless bowman). Your post is about your luk mage. Not your low luk mage.
    2. Obsolete non-mage, job-specific items: hat, gloves, all armor over 90 for thieves.

    And you are fortunate enough to go all the way down to 4 on your secondary stat from the beginning.

    i have 2 lv200s lol.
     
  8. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    What jobs are your level 200s tho, having 2 level 200 mages doesnt mean you understand the challenges facing marksmen and buccaneers (so your statement merits nothing).

    Also, all luk mages are low luk mages in the end, because “low luk” is the meta, no pepega is walking around with 165 base luk. This is the same as dex/low dex, str/low str. Do you really think there are serious players who have money walking around with 150 base dex plus gear on top of that? Get real. You claim to have 2 level 200s but clearly you don’t understand what you’re talking about. Lukless/Dexless/strless doesnt refer to your base stat, it refers to the gear your wearing. After I’m done scrollinf my gear, I’ll probably have 4 base luk, but I still won’t be a lukless mage because my gear will all be decked out with luck, making me a luck mage. The same goes for archers, buccs and sairs with minimal str or dex, they scroll gear for their secondary stat instead of their main stat.

    All classes have some gear that is usually never useful and is maybe picked up along the way. Players can’t just scroll end-game gear every 10 levels, that would be dumb. Instead you end up with whatever you might find along the way, and then a somewhat flexible mid-game meta (i.e maybe lvl 80-100 thief gear) and then a definitive late game meta (usually the lvl 80 set). Mages are different, our best build is to have none of these items, and only equip what our helmet/pendant/rings will let us (or usuallly just a bathrobe in most cases).
     
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  9. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    That is quite literally what being LUKless/DEXless/STRless is. If you add any more secondary stat in order to equip the next threshold of items, you'd be considered low-[stat].

    Not sure why you're getting confused about the analogy. Essentially, what you're asking for is a balance to higher level equipment in regards to the secondary stat so that they are more viable. This is a needless revision/balance all it does is move the posts for the next optimal strategy, which people can calculate very very easily.

    The reason why there doesn't need to be any changes regarding end game LUK items is that the optimal strategy of being LUKless will still win out.
     
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  10. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    NicholasNicholas if you want to be taken seriously you may want to refrain from personal attacks. My mage is Fartsy and my bowmaster is Shear. I also had/worked on a NL in the past.

    Although if you want personal attacks,
    [​IMG]
    This item is worthless since 1) 103 LUK req 2) limited to mage 3) level req.

    You are min/maxing wrong and will never reach 4 LUK with an item like this.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    But isn't it just the cutest glove lol. Also, you didn’t do the math on that, it’s clearly not correct.
     
  12. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    Same with you

     
  13. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    I can see the difference, but what I’m saying is that “low” is the end-game meta because of implications about character equipment. I.e a dexless assassin would scroll luk earrings/focus on maxing luk and ignoring all dex. This simply isn’t the case, as the best equip build is the build that lets you wear the NT claw/10 atk mon/pgc. Every class except for mage fits in the category of “minimize your secondary stat and wear items to get your secondary stat so you can equip the highest level weapon” except for mage, where you ignore all gear that requires the secondary stat and focus on your primary stat. My example clearly showed this. I can build a mage with 4 base luk and it still won’t be lukless. These words refer to the armor you wear in the end-game, because those are far less mutable than your AP (i.e if I scroll a perfect luk robe then I am missing the opportunity of a perfect int robe and simply not using this robe to use a 20 int robe is going to largely affect my damage because now I cant wear my 230 tma staff (etc)). This is what I meant.

    Luk mage is different from other classes because there is no incentive to wear any items that require luk.


    I would agree that this suggestion is needless, it was mostly just for fun/to see what people would say. I was really more interested in giving more Worth-while end-game content to mages.

    The most convincing argument agains this buff would pursue the fact that this buff isn’t substantial, doesn’t impact the end-game meta of mages but still ends a serious conversation about actually fixing luk mages (without removing the current meta). I am more in favor of pushing another, more substantial buff which doesn’t affect the amount of damage done by a luk mage (see my post about luk mage avoidability buff), because instead of buffing damage, it changes the end-game intentions of luk-mage without overriding the current meta for mages and could have benefits to newer players who have luk mages through potentially a lot of money saved on pots.
     
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  14. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    This doesnt change anything about what I said. If you end up with 165 luk with gear and buffs, it doesnt matter where it comes from. If I scroll eg a +50 luk oa and have as low base luk as possible, I still get to wear that glove. With perfect base stats this glove (perfect and clean) is going to be as good as a +2 5 slot bwg. The only thing that would change this fact is if i end up with more than 165 luk and my base luk is already at 4, in which case I might consider making a bwg (but I didn’t do the math on what causes that scenario so I’m not sure, I think it requires a lot of chaos scrolls).

    Also, this quote only further proves we should buff luk mages somehow (thank you for sharing it)
     
  15. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    This is false. If anything, mages are the best class that fits into the category of "minimize your secondary stat." People are scrolling anakarunes/anakamoons and lapiz sandals in order to min-max their INT from available mage equips. The only thing they're not doing is wearing equips in order to equip their end-game weapon, which is the main driving factor for secondary stats on other classes (and why NLs tend to go craven over sleeve).

    Point being - NT wand/staves will never be end-game weapons. Mages already have their end game weapons and they happen to be LUKless.
     
  16. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    Nobody is scrolling Lapiz Sandals, very few people are even using them. Most people go for yellow snow shoes, if anything. Anakarunes are a bit more common but mainly used by LUK mages. Most meta mages don't use them because Starlight/Moonlight is easier to equip at 40 LUK required and gives only 1 less INT. Either way, people are asking for buffs to the LUK mage weapons in order to make it viable and rewarding for mages to min-max LUK, similar to archers, assassins, bandits, and even some warriors, so whether people use Doros Robes, Anakamoons, etc. is not relevant. Just as an aside, any buff to endgame LUK mage weapons would make those robes/shoes worthwhile as well.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Perhaps it's because you guys don't have experience at the end-game level, or perhaps 'end-game' mage experience to you is 1 hit killing ULU2.
    Or it might just be my conflated experience being around noobs who want to bring mages to boss and are thus obsessed with minmaxing their mages.

    This isn't really a very productive discussion when you try to speak on behalf of the entire server, because the people who have already voiced their opinions in this thread are those 'end-game mages' you guys are just theorizing about.
     
  18. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    Let's clean up this thread a bit:
    1a. NT staves have no value because element staves are better
    1b. luk mages are less viable than their lukless counterparts
    1c. Increasing level and stats make NT staff viable
    upload_2020-7-12_19-32-25.png
    2a. The post is made for fun without expectation it'll go anywhere
    2b. 20 magic attack doesn't make luk mages useful
    2c. Mages do not benefit from new content
    2d. luk mages at no value in its current form
    2e. OP made an 'incredibly detrimental mistake' by creating a LUK mage
    upload_2020-7-12_19-40-11.png
    3a. OP digresses into bossing = dpm, training = slow, heavy hits (faltizan vs sky ski)
    3b. Make LUK mages better at bossing vs LUKless
    upload_2020-7-12_20-4-13.png
    3a. Mages have nothing to contribute and nothing to gain from most bosses
    3b. Newer, better gear is enticing for all classes but mage.
    3c. "Not everything needs to be meta as it diminishes the autonomy of players and the choices they make" is not relevant
    3d. Paladins, buccs, and marksman gets buffs for 'meta damage'
    upload_2020-7-12_20-10-0.png
    5a. LUK mage is a standalone class
    upload_2020-7-12_20-20-9.png
    6a. There are a lot of HP inherent in maple weapons.
    6b. Mages get enough HP in level up to nullify effect of 250 hp
    6c. 'Fat stack' of magic is better
    6d. "Leave the hp AND make it stronger"
    upload_2020-7-12_20-21-42.png
    7a. Stacking with event items is not fair
    7b. Mages scroll for LUK
    7c. There is a difference between Targa (INT) and Targa (LUK) for luk mages (not at base 4 LUK)
    7d. People wear golden soul cape
    7e. Mages need to "MW" to hold their staves
    7f. Most LUK mages die out before 163
    7g. 50 avoid does NOTHING
    7h. LUK mages' defense is negligible
    7i. Safety Charms are an indirect nerf to LUK mages
    upload_2020-7-12_20-27-29.png
    8a. iPippy made the 'fatal assumption' there is only one end-game playstyle (grinding vs bossing)
    8b. A lot of arguments against change are 'specious'
    upload_2020-7-12_20-45-44.png
    9a. Buff mage-only gear instead of common gear (buff LUK mages only)
    9b. Post was made in jest.
    upload_2020-7-12_20-48-24.png
    10a. extend the (viable) possibilities rather than keep them stagnant
    10b. LUK mages are a failed build
    upload_2020-7-12_20-52-33.png
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  19. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    I'm honestly not sure when this thread went from Neo Tokyo weapon discussions to luk mage buffs...

    If I recall correctly, the post was about changing the stats for both wands and staffs. Digging under all this luk mage discussions, the heart of the matter seemed to have been about a lack of separating identity for elemental wands vs. NT wands and possibly timeless wands (if they ever do come out).

    The best fix would honestly be to fix elemental wands to give elemental penalty for bishops. That would push people to rely on neo tokyo wands/staffs as well as the timeless weapons if they were to come out. However, that would probably have to be countered with some extra balancing like giving the NT wand/staffs comparable stats to the elemental wands.

    Whether people use staffs or not, will be dependant on what they believe is the best way to play the game. It's like how there are two daggers for shadowers, but the STR variant is barely used. Some people will still use it cus it looks cool :p but if we were to look out for ways to make every piece of dead content viable, it's would need a meta overhaul. If my understanding of your posts are right, you also don't want to shift the meta, you just want to make things *more viable (which as replies to this thread have revealed there is certain disagreements about the viable nature of luk mages).
     
  20. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    [​IMG]
     
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