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Modifying Broken Glasses

Discussion in 'Rejected' started by thetavi, May 1, 2015.

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  1. thetavi
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    thetavi Pac Pinky

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    Thinking about the long term health of Ludi PQ, it really is destined to die whenever Carnival PQ gets released. CPQ is simply better all around. It is faster EXP and provides an arguably better reward. The amount of effort required to get the Broken Glasses, by comparison, is astronomically higher. Further, Raccoon Masks mostly outclass the Broken Glasses anyway, so people will not really be bothered by the missing +1 all stats.

    That said, Broken Glasses are technically the best eye accessory in the game for Thieves, and possibly Warriors as well. (Haven't done the math to be sure) It seems odd that the best equipment in the game to come from such limited circumstances, in a PQ that you can't enter past level 50.

    In order to solve both of these issues, my proposal is to allow Broken Glasses to be tradeable within the account once. This means that you could not buy/sell Broken Glasses because they are bound to your account. However, you can create an alternate character to play on and farm Ludi PQ and give the Broken Glasses reward to your main. This solves the issue of missing out on the best eye accessory in the game for end game players by allowing you to access the item again. By keeping it bind on account, it forces every individual who wants to try again for new Broken Glasses to go PQ themselves. Finally, I don't believe allowing the Broken Glasses to be farmable is "OP" since it requires 35 PQ's to obtain each one already, which takes a very long time and a lot of effort.

    So, I'm not sure it's actually possible, but those are my thoughts on the matter. What do you think?

    As noted by Tech, the problem with making them tradeable within the account is that you could create new characters on the same account and skip Ludi PQ altogether on that new character. So this leaves a few options in my mind: The Broken Glasses could instead be Bind on Equip like Reverse items are, or only tradeable within the account once. Or both Bind on Equip and Bind on Account - meaning that when you get them, you can trade them within your account, but as soon as a character equips it, it is forever stuck to that character and can no longer be traded even within the account. This is a bit more convoluted than I originally imagined, so it's probably not that easy to do.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
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  2. Tech
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    Tech Dark Stone Golem

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    So once i get a pair of glasses on one character, i won't ever have to do Ludi PQ again? Unless i really want a pair of glasses for each character or scroll a pair badly... I suspect the exp will be bad compared to what the CPQ will offer so there is a minimal incentive to do LPQ. I'm not sure if i like this suggestion. I think if this was added, a lot of people will run LPQ at first but slowly after everyone gets a pair people will just stop going... A few people will roll through here and there but not like it is now.

    What I'm trying to get at is i think this suggestion will ultimately take away people from LPQ. (Under the assumption when CPQ is released that it will provide competitive exp rates)
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
  3. OP
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    thetavi
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    thetavi Pac Pinky

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    Erm... I'm not sure I understand this reply. You still only get one Broken Glasses per 35 PQ's. How would making it tradeable within accounts make people stop after getting a pair? That's what they currently do. My suggestion is to remedy that problem!
     
  4. Tech
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    Tech Dark Stone Golem

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    I suppose it's because you're assuming everyone will need more then one pair of glasses. If I'm leveling (not funded) i get my pair and move on and focus on leveling. If i start another character i can then just transfer my glasses and skip LPQ all together. I think we can all agree the amount of time it takes to find a LPQ party and then complete the PQ isn't always the most efficient route to leveling. It can take quite some time. Why would i put myself through that when i can do CPQ?
     
  5. OP
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    thetavi
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    thetavi Pac Pinky

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    Edit: Nevermind, I see what you're saying now!

    It's because you'd only have to do it once per account. Then transfer it each new character. That makes sense.

    Then for my idea to work the way intended, you'd have to be able to trade it only once.

    Thanks for the clarification.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
  6. Tech
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    Tech Dark Stone Golem

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    Right. CPQ is a large part of my argument and it's not even released yet. Every new feature implementation needs to be looked at with a critical eye especially when it's non v62 GMS-like/Custom Content.

    I'm strongly against adding this if the plan is to remove it once CPQ is released.
     
  7. OP
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    thetavi
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    thetavi Pac Pinky

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    Nah you were right, I just misunderstood what you were saying - it's because being infinitely tradeable leaves that issue of just needing to do Ludi PQ once (x35) ever.

    I guess another way to look at it is making them Bind on Equip like the Reverse items. Or both Bind on Account and Bind on Equip. :p

    I agree with you now that without a limitation of either only one trade or making it bind on equip, it actually will kill Ludi PQ even worse.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
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  8. Tech
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    Tech Dark Stone Golem

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    Nah man, it was my fault. I wasn't clear in my original response. I took you on a wild goose chase for a bit.

    Blehh.... Why do i feel like an ass hole now? If i came across rude at any point please forgive me as that was never my intent.
     
  9. OP
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    thetavi Pac Pinky

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    It's all good! It was my oversight on the fact that you could continuously trade it. I'm glad someone was able to catch that, and I modified my stance to reflect what I think is a more appropriate solution.
     
  10. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    What if we just made the glasses tradeable? Why are any equips even bound to character? It seems to me it's more like a scam run by Neckson to get people to grind more on their treadmill..
     
  11. OP
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    thetavi Pac Pinky

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    Well, Neckson's motivations are clearly different, but in this situation it is to ensure the long term health of the PQ. Otherwise, Ludi PQ will surely die. I care about being able to PQ many months down the road because it is what I enjoy and brings me a sense of nostalgia. End-game focused players probably won't care.
     
  12. Tech
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    Tech Dark Stone Golem

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    Your revised suggestion is much better. I'm on the fence about it still. I'm a bit biased towards keeping things as GMS-like as possible so i'll let the other provide feedback on your suggestion.

    Disclaimer - While i know GMS was far from perfect, we have to be very careful about what we change for the longevity of this server.

    Edit to prevent double post
    Neckson's intent is hard to tell here but allow me to speculate on the pros of why they made it untradable.

    PQing has a few obvious benefits.
    1. It provides players a platform to be social.
    2. Builds teamwork.
    3. A way for players to practice playing with other classes and friends for later game content such as Zak/Pap.
    4. Understanding of the mechanics of the PQs are detrimental in this situation. (Not knowing how the PQ works sometimes will get you kicked from a party... This concept can be applied to Zak/Pap/HT)
    Those are a few cons of PQing in general. Using those cons i would speculate that providing an additional incentive such as those glasses suggested players to PQ. In GMS most serious players would buy x2 EXP card and go grind. That was much faster then PQing and everyone knew that. However, when they added those glasses everyone who was solo training revisited LPQ. Now, to address your suggestion. An example of why making them trade-able is a bit flawed. It allows funded players to bypass LPQ all together and just solo train. I can just equip a scrolled pair of glasses at level 35 from my main which will add a substantial boost to my damage and hit ludi tower for solo training.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  13. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    I'm not so sure if the "health" of LPQ is dependent on people being forced to do it 35 times themselves if they want glasses. I see it a different way. For instance, the ability to trade the glasses means the ability to sell them, which naturally means the ability for others to buy them. And this in turn means that now it is possible for people to acquire multiple pairs of glasses for their characters, which means they are far more willing to risk scrolling them with eyewear accessory scrolls.

    Demand for glasses will be high, and farming glasses will be profitable. So, I really do not see LPQ dying out. Combined with the exp and other rewards like scrolls you get, there are plenty of reasons to still LPQ.
     
  14. Bulba
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    Bulba Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Personally I would rather just nerf the CPQ exp since it makes 30-50 too easy, which may then give LPQ a fighting chance. At this point I don't know if making them fully tradeable would ultimately benefit or harm PQs in terms of popularity (and in terms of the value of glasses as well). People might just skip LPQ and do CPQ because of better exp and then buy the glasses from someone else later on. I think tavi's suggestion would be better, limiting it to account and limited number of times, if we're going to change it at all.

    Then again it becomes possible to farm glasses on a mule and transfer them to main. You could do it while your main is within 35-50 but that would stop you from overlevelling at least. On the other hand, being able to farm would mean LPQ remains popular.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
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  15. OP
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    thetavi Pac Pinky

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    The problem with this approach is that doing other things are way more profitable than doing Ludi PQ. Personally, I think it wouldn't work because the item isn't good enough. You could sell them and make some profit for sure, but it's not as simple as supply being low, because the demand I think would also be low. An average person won't care to have that +1 all stats. End game, some classes benefit more from the Raccoon Mask anyway and will have no interest. Fortunately, Night Lords tend to be a pretty popular class as well as Warriors, who both get the greatest benefit from this item. Still, nobody is going to pay that high for them when they can benefit so much more investing elsewhere.

    I do think, however, people would do it the 35 times on alternate character at least once for their main. A lot of people just leveled as fast as they could in the beginning and didn't bother with the item at first, but I feel they would later down the road. I think this is true because right now people are still somewhat in the "mad rush" of an early game server. Later on, people will get bored with their mains and make new characters anyway. That desire for building a new character and the coincidence that you can benefit your main is why I think it would work.

    I could be completely wrong, so I invite everyone to give their opinion, but that's my view point.

    Definitely in favor of nerfing CPQ as well, but unfortunately, I doubt there is any way to save Ludi PQ with CPQ existing. CPQ is just way simpler to set up, and on private servers where we have a smaller player base, people will just gravitate towards it.

    Regardless, I doubly have the reason for making them at least partially tradeable due to them being the best eye accessory in the game for certain classes. It's weird for that to be inaccessible because you outleveled the source.
     
  16. Bulba
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    Bulba Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Going by this reasoning, I think leaving them untradeable would encourage people to do LPQ, or else you won't be able to get the glasses any other way once you level past 50. That would force people to choose between fast exp (CPQ) or do 35 runs for a pair of limited edition glasses. The question would then be whether people value the glasses enough to bother doing 35 LPQs for it, or they don't mind not having it in exchange for faster levelling.
     
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  17. Tech
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    Tech Dark Stone Golem

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    This is exactly my point. By making the glasses untradable suggest players to stop the hardcore solo grinding and PQ. This forces players to SLOW DOWN. I think overall that was Neckson's major concern. If everyone continued to do mad rushes to 200 people will get bored/burnt out and quit. By putting in these little "speed bumps" extends the life cycle of the content and gives the devlopers/designers some cushion time to add and fix content.
     
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  18. Lionheart
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    Well I do think you're completely wrong. Not to be mean or an ass. But the average person SHOULD want the glasses. If you have an empty equip spot, why not get something equipped there? Maybe some people are too lazy and too frustrated by LPQ to bother spending 15-20 hours of playtime just for a pair, but on the other hand, I believe many others would be willing to drop millions of mesos for one instead. And furthermore, if trading the glasses was allowed, then it means scrolling the glasses becomes more viable, which means they become an even better item than they are now.

    In the end game, only warriors and brawlers might desire raccoon masks instead, since all they add is accuracy. Every other class doesn't need this stat.

    @Bulba@Bulba: If less people do LPQ because they simply expect to buy a pair instead, that means the glasses prices goes up.

    Also: I do think LPQ is one PQ that could benefit from increasing the level cap. After all, the majority of it is based on puzzle solving and stuff...
     
  19. OP
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    thetavi Pac Pinky

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    It's because investing in other gear is a lot easier and benefits you so much more. It is great that it fills that slot, but you're really only gaining +1 all stats. Or you could dump 5mil on another 60% scroll and get more weapon attack, which makes you way stronger than +1 all stats does. Take this logic and expand it, and you'll see that investing in basically anything else gets you more bang for your buck. Obviously only up to a certain point, but that point is pretty far out there.

    Raccoon masks can be scrolled for DEX or INT and have 7 slots. They are therefore the best for Bowmen and Magicians hands down. The Broken Glasses are great because they have STR and LUK, which as far as I know is impossible to get on any other eye accessory (Spectrum Goggles don't exist in this version). So, actually it's the exact opposite of what you said. :p
     
  20. Lionheart
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    It really isn't as far out there as you think. Once anyone gets all of their gear decently scrolled, any further upgrades or buying broken glasses should be about the same bang for your buck...
     
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