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Important New System for White Scrolls (Feedback Thread)

Discussion in 'MapleLegends Announcements' started by Nise, Jul 6, 2021.

How do you feel about the Prestigious Coin system?

Poll closed Jul 14, 2021.
  1. Strongly support

    190 vote(s)
    34.4%
  2. Slightly support

    130 vote(s)
    23.6%
  3. Neutral

    90 vote(s)
    16.3%
  4. Slightly oppose

    71 vote(s)
    12.9%
  5. Strongly oppose

    71 vote(s)
    12.9%
  1. Disney
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    Disney Red Snail

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    Ohh didnt know it was that much maybe im messing up somewhere. But this would further prove the point its not that bad to farm for ws/cs in contrast to what trion was mentioning.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. Trion
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    Trion Capt. Latanica

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    No No. You are the bossing expert. The almighty Archmage at Horntail. You should know the real answers.

    In all seriousness if you read Nise's original post which outlined everything you would know under this proposed system Area bosses will never drop the coins. So with your highly intelligent self I will let you deduce what I mean by bossing.
     
  3. Mirrors
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    Mirrors Game Moderator Staff Member Game Moderator

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    Guys let's stay civilized in this thread and no need to resort to personal attacks. Thanks ya'll.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 6
    • Great Work Great Work x 2
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  4. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Assuming each rav and pap run takes 15min a day, means 4 clears takes 1 hr a day.

    so Trion's total time is 31 hrs in 31 days.

    75m / 31hr = 2.419m/hr

    104k/hr = 1.14% of 6 man HT splits
    2419k/hr = 1.14% / 104k * 2419k = 2,206% of 6 man HT splits

    if u can participate 6 man HT, im sure you can solo rav/pap faster then 15min each run

    pretty sure yr calculation is wrong af, how did u even arrive at 104k/hr and 1.14%?

    Also side note: I don't HT so will you enlighten me with the usual rates of HT splits
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  5. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    [​IMG]
    The post has been up for ~20 hours and there's 11 pages already
    (I started writing this post in the morning when it was at 8 pages only btw... so anything past page 8 is most likely not mentioned in this post)

    You've probably seen it from the replies from other staff members, but we are definitely reading every single message posted here and we can't thank everyone enough for their feedback! (this makes it sound like I'm closing the thread, but I'm not so don't worry jesscapadesjesscapades it'll definitely continue to be up for the foreseeable future)

    I'll try to elaborate a bit more on some of the major things that were brought up~

    Which bosses would be included in these coin drops?
    We're looking at pretty much every boss that isn't an area boss. It won't just be end-game bosses that require washing (aka. Toad, Pink Bean, Horntail), as that would lead to issues that some people have mentioned in this thread, such as GriggsGriggs here. It'll hopefully encapsulate as many levels (not just 155+) in the bossing range possible, so that it doesn't become a min/maxed thing like PepperPepper mentions here. Keeping it more broad and not just 155+ & washing required bosses, would allow lower level, lower geared, and more casual players to be able to benefit from the suggested change ^^

    WS/CS I would assume would still be possible from gachapon?
    Question brought up by xSkyKingxSkyKing here. WS/CS will still be obtainable from traditional methods like gachapon and CWK exchange. The suggestion doesn't touch anything on that front, except for the fact that when you "pull" a WS/CS it will be untradeable. BUT you can exchange it to coins and trade it with other players that way.

    Why don't we have bosses just drop WS/CS directly?
    aussietinaskaussietinask mentioned the feast or famine nature of the suggestion. Because its such a high value item, the drop rate for it will have to be extremely low. That leaves a lot to RNG and is a pretty bad experience for more casual bossers who might not be running the same boss 2x a day, 7x a week. I personally think a big part of why people keep echoing that "bossing is terrible mesos" is because the bottom line is bad. For HT, you run for MW or Gene, and everything else might not even cover your potion costs. You could go on a completely dry streak and get absolutely nothing for ages too.

    Then why don't we have higher drop rates for these bosses? Then it introduces major power creep/spike and it wouldn't be desired.

    There's also the question of do we allow all bosses do drop WS/CS? Can a direct WS/CS drop from bosses from low levels be balance-able? If it's an easily do-able low level boss, people might just make a ton of mules for it and farm it that way. To balance it out, we'd just have to make the drop rate RIDICULOUSLY low, which doesn't feel good for majority of players.

    The slight increase in supply with a direct drop doesn't seem like it would be enough to quell price hikes (as seen by event raffles, gachapon chance increases, and CWK exchange), because it's not just a supply issue and is intertwined heavily with the other causes mentioned in the original post.

    Why don't we have point systems, rather than a physical drop
    This is something that can still be explored, but the major red flags brought up by ShadowerZhiShadowerZhi here that we just absolutely can't ignore are:
    - Low-level players are left out (but perhaps PQ points can be maintained too?)
    - Mules abuse

    If we were to adopt a point system, we would need ways to counteract those two major points. There's also the issue of confusion. The issues I foresee with a point system is the inability to list it in a FM or owl to see market price/state. While as, having stuff with you physically & seeing it in your inventory makes things more intuitive to use/trade.

    What if a player gets banned with a bunch of coins on them?
    Mentioned by akashskyakashsky here. I think the difference with the current system vs. suggestion is the degree we get hit.

    Coins, due to their flexible nature of being able to be converted from other things (eg. from CS or from RoT), won't be as hard hit as if someone were to get banned with a bunch of WS. If a player right now gets banned with let's over-exaggerate and say 75% of the WS on the server, the bottleneck for returning to the original number of WS on the server would be the RNG of players pulling WS from gacha/cwk exchange. This could take a long ass time depending on RNG.

    With coins, if someone gets banned with a bulk of coins, the bottleneck would be coins. But because you can get coins from multiple avenues, and exchange other items into coins into WS, theoretically the impact should be much less.

    From how I envision it, you at least won't have any panic price hikes whenever you hear someone was banned with like 300 WS.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 13
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  6. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    In the modern day the average profit per HT kill is about ~100m. If you kill HT as efficiently as possible, that is 1.5hour appleless 5man runs where everyone has 15b + of funding, using with sed mule to avoid losing dpm on attacker, and staying in cave to avoid doing elixir quest, it works out to roughly ~13m/hr. So even the most insanely optimized HT runs just barely match a lvl 130 mage raw farming ulu2. Any "normal" 6man HT squad should expect to see rates anywhere between 5-10m/hr depending on the degree of optimization.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Informative Informative x 2
  7. Trion
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    Trion Capt. Latanica

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    That just cleared up a whole bunch of confusion around some of the specifics. Awesome drop of info right there Nise. Thanks for clearing it up.
     
  8. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    This thread is gonna be the One Piece of forum threads with multiple arcs, high intensity fights, and 1000 chapters of content
     
    • Like x 5
    • Agree x 5
    • Great Work x 2
    • Informative x 2
    • Useful x 1
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  9. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is that this will hedge bossing economy with farming inflation.
    If farming inflates the value of white scrolls/coins, bossing economy increases as well.

    Prior to this suggestion, bossing economy was entirely dependent by player-based demand and life-stage of the population/server. Now the bottom line of bossing profits can be determined by the amount of inflation within the server as well.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  10. yogurtseller
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    yogurtseller Mixed Golem

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    https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...olls-feedback-thread.41409/page-4#post-277160

    XatShifty

    (u put it more eloquently tho..)
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. Lynx
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    Lynx Dark Stone Golem Retired Staff

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    There are just so many things wrong with this system;
    - Doesn't solve the WS as currency and hoarding problem; these coins are an even more versatile currency than WS, and just as hoardable,if not more.
    - Even MORE tax evasion due to coins being too versatile in trade value, and hence may almost completely replace mesos.
    - Economy will EVEN MORE so and pretty much completely revolve around these coins than it is now the case with WS / CS; which seems very shallow and boring
    - Overly custom system that does not feel like it belongs in our beloved Old School Maple

    It seems to me this system creates more problems and even pushes further many of the current issues.

    I feel like Staff is trying to kill 2 birds with 1 stone - trying to "fix" WS inflation and buffing bossing at the same time.

    While there could potentially be a way to do that well, I do not think both problems should necessarily be solved together, and overall
    this system feels to me like a very awkward solution trying to do so.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Informative Informative x 2
  12. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Poll is now available.

    It'll be up for 7 days to see how the community generally feels about the suggestion. Please remember this is about the suggestion as a whole (not the specific details) and that we'll continue to work on & refine the system, so as to make it rewarding, fun, and balanced~

    Please feel free to continue the discussion though ^^

    Kim edit: Reminder that vote results do not mean it will definitely be added, or definitely denied, etc. The purpose of the poll is just to see what the community thinks.
     
  13. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Moderator Post
    If only there would be some justice to those instead of this presumption of guilt and holding certain people to different standards.


    Great post, overall it seems pretty spot on and will definitely delve more into your "Brain dump" when I got some spare time on my hands.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  14. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    These 3 issues will be completely solved when tax is implimented in these coins => making them tax more than mesos.

    im not sure how this could be done, have to look at the neighboring server to see what they did with their big coin.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Hoarding of prestigious coins assumes a larger risk than hoarding white scrolls. The current value of white scrolls take into account its demand-based fungibility in addition to its utility value - it's always a seller's market because investors compete against buyers who are in need. In the proposed system, sure, people can try to hoard prestigious coins to artificialize scarcity, but they would have to be very confident in an uncertain market and will take on a margins-based risk by doing so. For example, assume white scrolls are 150m and prestigious coins are 1.5m, and the exchange is set at 100:1. In our current system, if 10 white scrolls drop in price by 5 mil, your equity dipped by 50mil. If 1,000 prestigious coins drop in price by 100k, your equity drops by 100m. In markets as complex as MapleLegends, you aren't going to see large percentage swings of big ticket items (outside of extreme, external intervention). However, the market generally has day-to-day marginal changes on smaller ticket items like prestigious coins. Look at the Onyx Apple market and the merchants operating on a much more granular/marginal scale. The price variance for apples falls usually within 50-100k of each other vs. price variance of white scrolls that tend to range ranging from 1-30m+. Of course, losses are only assumed when you sell, but the market is unpredictable, and you're going to have a much harder time trying to liquidate 1,000 coins vs. 10 white scrolls without cutting deeply into your margins.

    We don't even know what the exchange rate is going to be. What happens if the exchange rate for 1 white scroll is 1,000 coins, and you can only hold them in stacks of 100? Do you really think people are going to be holding onto 15-20 white scrolls at a time in the form of coins?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  16. Lynx
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    Lynx Dark Stone Golem Retired Staff

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    Perhaps, but its still a very awkward 'solution' as I've mentioned and also reason #4 is of no less importance.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    To certain extend, although I would argue it to be subjective.

    Nothing against you or anyone, just my personal opinion, but the moment multi-client and mulestory is the main-stay, I felt the nostalgia has already been long gone, and we have drifted apart from this "Old School Maple" (Do majority even play maple fullscreen?). The only question is, how far are we willing to drift away from this nostalgia, and by having this currency, how far are we drifting away - or how much nostalgia can we retain while using this system.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  18. Lynx
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    Lynx Dark Stone Golem Retired Staff

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    Yep, I guess you could say, for me, it is crossing the lines and therefor not worth it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  19. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Neckson had never had such responsive dev team and GMs but maplelegends do this is such a damper on mah nostalgia
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  20. Lynx
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    Lynx Dark Stone Golem Retired Staff

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    Yep totally, I really hope this wont come through.
    We need to be careful with such changes;
    if we "balance" everything in a game solely around numerical values simply because its "comfortable", thats all we'll have left - not a game, but a bunch of numbers.
    Ofc this in an exaggeration, but I feel this kind of change is leaning towards that direction and it is a big no no especially in such a nostalgia and feeling heavy game such as Maple.
    Not to mention there are plenty of people who are already only playing the number game, which is why we have these issues in the first place, so going further into this direction is just 'proving right' to unhealthy behavior which we are trying to balance and avoid.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1

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