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Night Raven's Claw

Discussion in 'Rejected' started by Mstweaker, May 9, 2015.

  1. Mstweaker
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    Mstweaker Horny Mushroom

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    A while ago, we had a debate about LV64 Maple Weapons and their inclusion in this server. Most people didn't agree due to it being "game-breaking" and not v62, which are both very true.
    Fast-forward to now and Im beginning to get the notion that NRCs are craftable. If this is true, I propose we take it out.

    Reason 1: If LV 64 Maple Weapons are game-breaking, then shouldn't a LV 90, secondary statless weapon be overkill? Especially since NLs are basically the best class in the game? It doesn't make sense to give an already-OP class another OP end-game weapon to reinforce that statement.

    Reason 2: If I recall correctly, Night Raven items, or the claw to be exact, came out after v62. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Reason 3: No other class (besides mages) has a secondary statless end-game item. It wouldn't be fair for classes like marksman and buccs who are already scraping to get by.

    For anyone who might say it's hard to get, it's honestly not. It's just a matter of doing the EQ everyday until you get the needed item.
     
  2. Stas.
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    Stas. Windraider

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    5:23 PM
    I agree on the overall idea.
    But dexless < lowdex on the long term.
    So dexless claws are side end weps.
    And if we block maple weps atm then we should ban NRC as well
     
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  3. Bulba
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    Bulba Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I was surprised it was added in as well, and I am agreeable with the removal, although stas is also right that low-dex is better than dexless in the long run and NRC allows NLs to comfortably stay dexless until they are ready to convert.

    I could say the same thing for Elemental wands too since mages are the only class that goes pure stats naturally, but it's a fact they were already added in v62.


    Anyways there is a question of what to do with people that already have the NRC as well.
     
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  4. OP
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    Mstweaker
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    Mstweaker Horny Mushroom

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    Yes, low dex is better in the long run, but the dex on the equips would have to be insane (45 dex zhelm, HTP, 13 dex SS) to outdamage a decently-funded, dexless, NRC-user. But Im glad you get the point.

    Thats a good question. I predict that there at max 2 NRCs on this server. But what would we do.. nx compensation? Refund? That would be up for debate.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2015
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  5. NSFW
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    NSFW Skelegon

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    another thing is that maple weapons aren't very game-breaking for sins. it's mostly warriors and buccaneers that get destroyed by them.
    i mean they're op for all classes, but not to the same extent
     
  6. OP
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    Mstweaker
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    Mstweaker Horny Mushroom

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    Actually, its very game-breaking. A regular dex claw, thats is 50 and higher, requires x+40 dex (x=level required). Normally, a Caster requires 130 dex. By using an NRC, the NL is able to ignore the requirements and pump 105 ap into luk. Throw that on top of the fact that luk is heavily weighed in the L7 formula and you have yourself an OP sandwich.

    Warriors, on the otherhand, dont have any stat requirement on any of their weapons, save for stonetooth and night ravens wing. A LV 64 Maple Weapon gives a warrior roughly 40 acc. That exactly 50 dex worth of acc. That grants the warrior 50 ap into str, which is miniscule compared to the 105 ap that the sins get. Plus, LV 64 maple weapons are hardly end-game material for warriors or buccs.
     
  7. Chew
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    Chew Headless Horseman

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    NRC is still not the optimal endgame weapon. Even with the "OP L7 formula". So this is honestly just a minor boost from 90-120 if the assassin can actually afford it since they seem quite expensive.
    I'll show you the math if you need to see it.
     
  8. Aquarium
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    Aquarium Selkie Jr.

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    4:23 PM
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    Warriors do?
     
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  9. Bulba
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    Bulba Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I would like to see the math though. I did rough calculations myself on past servers when deciding to go dexless or lowdex (with NRC or Sleve), and if I recall Sleve was better in terms of damage, but not by a long shot.
     
  10. Pina
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    Pina Stone Golem

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    PodoSoju - Gahm - Only81
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    why not remove everything that gives a slight boost to classes ! :)OnionYawn
     
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  11. OP
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    Mstweaker
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    Mstweaker Horny Mushroom

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    Minor boost is rather an understatement. 105 extra luk is hardly 'minor'. Ive done a rough estimate of the math and, like bulba had stated, the sleeve did win, but not by very much. But please, do show me the calculations.

    They don't, but warriors have to account for accuracy through inputting dex. I guess I was wrong to assume that people would catch that.

    Hmm.. I dont think you understand. Its like... giving the rich free university tuition just because and letting the lower class work their ass off to get by.
     
  12. Illusion
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    Illusion Horny Mushroom

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    you cant compare a pure bossing class to marksmen and bucc, its known they have low dps than many other classes, and they have raven items as well so why hate on sins? they were meant to be powerful bosser class
     
  13. Bulba
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    Bulba Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Among all the Raven and Night Raven weapons, only the Night Raven's Claw is an outlier by the fact that it does not require secondary stats (ignoring warrior weapons since they are normally dexless).

    Removing NRC doesn't hurt the sin's end-game but only makes it harder for them to get there, so their bossing capabilities are not affected very much. With the NRC + Shinobi Bracer around, NLs can go dexless all the way if they want to (similar to mages), or they can switch to low-dex at any time. Without NRC they would have to plan for their dex accordingly like bowmen and pirates.
     
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  14. OP
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    Mstweaker
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    Mstweaker Horny Mushroom

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    Actually, you can. No class was meant to be anything. But yes, NL are 'powerful bosser class'. Why make them even stronger? Why not balance the game out and give other classes a boost? Why make it easier for NLs to dish out assraping damage while sairs and BMs (also 'powerful bosser class' by your definition) work their ass off to even scrape that damage?
     
  15. OP
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    Mstweaker
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    Mstweaker Horny Mushroom

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    This hits one of my main points right on the head.
     
  16. Pina
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    Pina Stone Golem

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    you're comparing items to real life w00000000000000000000000000ah
     
  17. ROFLS
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    ROFLS Mushmom

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    Like others said, it seems a bit strange to target out NRC as there are several items like it for other classes (available from gachapon mostly).

    Rather, what's concerning to me is just the inconsistency in the stated rationale for 'no maple weapons.' If the logic was that maple weapons should be introduced only as anniversary event items, then that is fine. But the argument that Kim held to was that maple items were too strong and diversity-killing. If that's the case, then why leave in other build-killing items? At least maple weapons balanced the playing field.

    (btw i am not pushing for one thing or another... just an observation)
     
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  18. Bulba
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    Bulba Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I think one of the stand-out points for NRC is that it is an end-game weapon, whereas maple weapons and other gach stuff are not (you eventually switch to another weapon later on).
     
  19. Tiko
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    Tiko Mushmom

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    I think that you have to consider what NLs have to get through till they start bossing...lucky seven until 120...not a decent aoe. Collecting all these stars. Their equips are the 2nd most expensive category items on the game. They need at least double the time to grind like other classes do. And all that for bossing purpose. I personally think that if we try to balance the game out we ll destroy something else.
     
  20. Chew
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    Chew Headless Horseman

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    I'll repeat, NRC is not an endgame weapon worth considering.

    Here's some math to further outline why:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19qDMlcDCZOZ2_i1KcbtJCMaR3L_L5GVraxUw51zEY3c/edit?usp=sharing

    105 luk is not a minor boost for assassins in 3rd job? Tell me more about how assassins are superior mobbers in comparison to other classes.
    Trust me, this item is gonna make no diffrence, a few assassins who can afford it are gonna lvl 10-20% quicker for a few lvls, thats all. And don't forget it's still quite expensive.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2015
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