Night Raven's Claw

I think that blocking maple weapons is in itself ridiculous, now you wanna take out Raven claws as well?
You must have lots of hatred towards NLs....
Like seriously, Maple weapons did exist in v62, the lvl 64 ones as well, I actually think that the server is ruining the experience for many NL fans like myself...
If you hate seeing others deal serious damage, then you're playing the wrong class, each has its own advantages, and NLs are pretty much indeed the best IMO.
I don't get the point behind these posts, let people enjoy the game the way it truly was in v62.... even when they were OP as heck, still no excuse.

EDIT: Downside don't forget the washing and heck of funding that goes into NL.... NL isn't just some OP by nature class, it requires lots of dedication to play and deal some damage...
Bishops get genesis, warriors get to do BF, sairs got the highest dps without NLs having SE, each class has its own benefits, and you're robbing the NLs their glorious privileges of dealing high dmg at bosses such as zak and HT.
If ravens were not included in this version then I'm fine with it, however, bring back maple weapons.

 

Maple weapons are game breaking. Removing them is understandable .

 

How can this be a GMS like experience if you're removing one of the best things that ever happened to sins and lots of other classes?
Lukless mages benefit from this and they got Ele wands.
Why not just remove the whole game now?
For this to be a GMS like server, it has to be as close as possible to it in every experience possible, aside from the ample profusion of hackers of course.

 

This thread is now over in my opinion, It is HIGHLY unlikely it will be removed due to the amount of people that have spent time
hunting for the items for it, there is even a few who have obtained it already They'd be pretty pissed.

So... moving on, @Kimberly can you reply to this with a verdict and end it please :C

 

I hope this ends with NRC staying and Maple weapons back in the game :3

 

Yeah, I guess we should just leave it at this point. Why close the gate now after all the cows left already?

The top 5 are 2 bishops, 2 mages, and a shadower anyway. I guess if this item was really so OP, the top 5 would all be night lords?

 

Staff would be too concerned with losing players to remove NRC.

 

I've counted 5 different for sale in fm so far, and seen 1 person wear it, his damage wasn't OP or gamebreaking, LOL.

 

Well, using some simple math I found for the Lucky 7 damage formula:
MAX = (LUK * 5.0) * Weapon Attack / 100
MIN = (LUK * 2.5) * Weapon Attack / 100
(L>confirmation from anyone that this formula is correct. @Navi @Kimberly pls? )

Now, before I go deeper into the math, I am going to state upfront that I will be intentionally overlooking some aspects. First, I will be overlooking weapon speed for the sake of simplicity (however, I will gladly later do the math to incorporate it). Secondly, I am going to ignore the fact that you can gain LUK from equipment as well as DEX; ergo, I am ignoring a potential trade of LUK gears which boosted your damage more for DEX gears to wear the higher level claws. Futhermore, I am overlooking the added complexity of skills such as Maple Warrior and Echo of a Hero.

So let's look at the formula. It appears there are two variables, LUK and Weapon Attack. However, there is actually only one variable: LUK. The reason is we can essentially remove the variable Weapon Attack factor based on the fact that the Weapon Attack difference between your respective DEXless and DEX requiring claws will be static. Your LUK, however, can change rapidly with each level.

Without going into too much detail on the mathematics/reasoning, comparing two claws will effectively come down to 2 things:
1) The effective "LUK loss" going from Claw A to Claw B.
2) The effective weapon attack gain going from Claw A to Claw B.

Here's the relevant formulas:
LUK loss = [Additional DEX required to equip Claw B] - (LUK on Claw B - LUK on Claw A).
AP required = LUK loss + (LUK loss) / ( [ATK on Claw B + Other Weapon Attack] / [ATK on Claw A + Other Weapon Attack] - 1 )

Calculating for AP required will give you the number which is the total usable AP you'll have to accumulate in order for it to become worth it to make the switch from Claw A to Claw B. By the way, this has nothing to do with DEXless or not, you can use this between any two claws!

To demystify this a bit, let's gather some claw data to use.

Night Raven's Claw, 40 weapon attack, +2 LUK.

Average Red Craven, 46 weapon attack, +6 LUK, requires 140 DEX.

Average Dragon Green Sleve, 50 weapon attack, requires 150 DEX.

Perfect Dragon Purple Sleve, 55 weapon attack, +9 LUK, requires 150 DEX.

We must also take into account that we gain weapon attack from other sources. Here are some common ones.
Ilbi Throwing Stars, 27 weapon attack.
Work Gloves, which can be scrolled for a varying amount of weapon attack.
Pink Adventurer Cape, 2 weapon attack.
Warrior Elixirs, +12 weapon attack.
Ciders, +20 weapon attack.
Onyx Apples, +100 weapon attack.

Let's create a few hypothetical scenarios.

Scenario 1: Noobie.
As a noobie, we'll still assume you have managed to get your hands on Ilbis, an Average Red Craven or Night Raven's Claw clean, and 8 attack Work Gloves. You use Warrior Elixirs. This gives you a static weapon attack increase of 47.

Scenario 2: Mid-range.
Now you're a mid-ranged Night Lord. You still have your Ilbis, but now you can upgrade to an Average Dragon Green Sleve and choose to scroll it for 60%s and probably pass at least 5. However, your DEXless claw gets the same bonus. You have 12 attack BWGs now, a 2 attack PAC, and you use Ciders. Now you also have a Zakum Helmet and HTP, lowering the DEX difference by 23. Therefore, you get a static weapon attack increase of 71.

Scenario 3: Pro.
You're the real deal now. You have super strong gears. Of course you have Ilbis. You're able to land a couple 30%s on a Perfect Dragon Purple Sleve and 60%+WS the remainder. Again you can do the same with your DEXless claw counter part. Your BWG is up to 16 weapon attack, your PAC up to 9 weapon attack, and please, you always use Onyx Apples. This gets you a static weapon attack increase of 172. Your Zakum Helmet is scrolled for DEX, your HTP is egged, and you can afford a good overall for DEX or LUK of equal caliber. This cuts the DEX difference by 60.

Spoiler: Scenario 1: Noobie

LUK loss = 115 - (6 - 2) = 111
AP required = 111 + (111) / ([46 + 47 / 40 + 47] - 1) = 111 + (111) / ([93 / 87] - 1) = 111 + (111) / (.07) = 111 + 1609.5 = 1720.5

Ergo, the Night Raven's Claw is better forever.

Spoiler: Scenario 2a: Mid-range training

LUK loss = 102 - (0 - 2) = 104
AP required = 104 + (104) / ([60 + 71 / 50 + 71] - 1) = 104 + (104) / ([131 / 121] - 1) = 104 + (104) / (.08) = 104 + 1258.4 = 1362.4

Ergo, the Night Raven's Claw is better forever.

Spoiler: Scenario 3: Pro

LUK loss = 65 - (11 - 4) = 58
AP required = 58 + (58) / ([75 + 172/ 60 + 172] - 1) = 58 + (58) / ([247 / 232] - 1) = 58 + (58) / (.06) = 58 + 897.06 = 955.06

Ergo, when your total usable AP is 956 or more, it is worth it to put your AP into DEX in order to make the switch from Night Raven's Claw to Perfect Dragon Purple Sleve.

TL;DR
As you can see, going DEXless is for the most part the superior option. Only in the very end game will you start to have to think about whether or not you should be switching over some of that LUK AP into DEX. This is because of how the formula works and how little weapon attack claws give. The boost from other sources is so great that it effectively "equalizes" their attack power by a lot, and LUK makes much more of a difference than it honestly should.

This means, actually it is true, the Night Raven's Claw is really overpowered.

Thanks to @Lionheart for reminding me how much weapon attack Night Lords truly get.

 

This post speaks the truth. PREACH

 

the truth?

@thetavi: the problem with all your calculations is that you don't factor in WATK from other sources, like: stars, gloves, buffs/items, pacs, and other such things. As it will turn out, the "optimum level" to switch to a dex-requring claw will be much higher, and you'll still need to scroll your equips well for dex/luk to get the most bang for your buck.

When I actually use your same formulas and the REAL WATK people would have with say... 12 atk bwgs (which is honestly pretty modest for "end game" imo), ilbis, a warrior elixir, and 2 atk pac, the green perfect dragon sleeve becomes desirable at 1046 AP.

GG.

 

Good point. I also left out the very natural fact that you will get a lot more DEX with gear, though. Let me see what happens with some more end game stats.

Let's say we have an egged HTP and a Zakum Helmet, and throw on some random other gear for a total of 25 + 23 + 15 + 10 = 73 DEX.
Now let's add around 40 extra attack from other gears, and even an apple on top for 140 attack bonus (static).

NRC vs Sleve with an apple:
AP required = 77 + (77) / (195/180) - 1 = 77 + (77) / (.083) = 77+ 927= 1004.

Yep, if additional weapon attack is involved, the bonus from LUK goes WAY up, which makes sense given the formula. So, yeah, it's the opposite in that case. The Night Raven's Claw becomes extremely overpowered.

So, I stand corrected on my claim (But not my math, it's right ). The Night Raven's Claw may in fact be kinda OP.

This also isn't taking into account Maple Warrior, which will add a % of LUK.

 

My formula wasn't wrong, but my conclusion was. Actually, the Night Raven's Claw is really overpowered. It makes low DEX builds ineffective until stupidly late in the game.

By the way, this doesn't mean I'm in favour of it's removal. I'm just pointing out the mathematics.

 

Mmhm, sins pretty much have no reason to add dex until you are ready with your dex-scrolled eq and scrolled Sleve, before that you can survive pretty well with NRC.

 

Not just survive. It is by far the superior option. I've now added the mathematical proof.

That said, the Shinobi Bracer is probably not that far behind it.