Night Raven's Claw

Interesting, I never calculated that far. So the NRC is superior when you have lots of WA?

 

Well, it's kind of counter-intuitive, but basically. See, the whole point of wearing a "better" weapon that requires dex is to increase your watk. However, needing like 150 dex to wear a claw is nothing to sneeze at. Since luk is factored into your damage too, needing that much dex hurts your damage.

But yeah. An easy way to think about it is by what percentage your watk increases compared to what percentage your luk increases. +15% luk = +15% damage. +10% watk = +10% damage. So when you need 150 dex to wear something, and you only have like 600 ap to distribute, that ends up being a huge chunk of damage lost. 600 luk vs 450 luk = 33% more damage. However, if you already have a lot of watk from a lot of sources, then the 15 watk you get from a sleeve becomes less significant. If it turns out wearing the sleeve is 108 watk vs 93 watk, you're only getting a 16% increase in damage for the 33% tradeoff in damage you could have had from luk.

 

Essentially it's superior always. To simplify it, how much LUK or Weapon Attack matters is a ratio. The more LUK you have, the more Weapon Attack benefits you, and vice versa. Now, with Night Lords specifically, their weapons start with very low weapon attack, but you can get a lot of LUK by going DEXless. Due to its low starting point, any additional weapon attack is like "crack" for them. But with each tiny bit more weapon attack, LUK is also becoming even more important.

The end result is essentially that the NRC is better until you have enough DEX gear that you can just equip a higher level claw simply from wearing the DEX gear. Pumping your AP into DEX is almost never worth it. There is a crossover point REALLY late in the game which you can calculate using the formula given (assuming it is correct until proven otherwise).

I'm not sure the removal of the NRC will make a big difference though since a Shinobi Bracer can reach 33 weapon attack (only 7 less) as it is. The same concept is going to apply to all DEXless claws. DEXless is just inherently superior, similar to how LUKless mages are inherently superior, LUKless gear being just further bonus. The only difference is that with Night Lords it's not truly static and guaranteed, but the end result is almost identical.

EDIT: Actually I just realized a much better way to put it. Now, weapon attack IS crack for Night Lords. But the disparity in weapon attack between claws is unnaturally low because Night Lords were expected to get some weapon attack from their stars. This is unique to them. That's why their end game claws are only around 50 weapon attack, while every other class's end game weapon has double or more weapon attack. The fact that they get so much of their weapon attack externally to their claw means the difference between claws matters much less.

 

what you see in FM is raven claw, not night raven, its not the same claw.

 

Question: Is the NRC supposed to be crafted with random stats, or is it supposed to always be average? I recall seeing a clean NRC in the FM that was below average.

 

It's random. I got a 37 att one sadly.. OnionDown

 

Random +/- 5 makes it even more OP...

 

I agree with the removal even if NRC do exist in v62
NRC make dexless extremely OP, and it will be much easier to get in the future
Shinobi bracer have balanced between dexless and low DEX, but NRC break it.

The most important point is that NRC is a end-game weapon.
It means that if you are not a dexless, you would be just like a sh*t FOREVER.

 

Sorry for having an item crafted with random stats like the others. Kappa.

 

This is plain wrong. Have a try at the calculations and youll see that the dragon purple sleeve is a much better alternative from lvl 110 and onward.

 

I don't get the point behind all this, sins are OP anyways, even if you remove the NRC, people will find a way to equip casters while having 25 base dex.
People are going to scroll ZH for dex anyways, I don't think that the NRC ultimate affects the game, it helps a lot though.

I am frankly more concerned with people's problem with sins dealing more damage, if you want more damage then play a sin.
You cannot make the weak stronger by weakening the strong, you'll be grateful when you have NLs zakum running with you.

IMO these kinds of threads should just turn into "why don't we remove sins from the game", you want the original experience or not?
AGAIN NRC will help, but low dex is indeed better in the long run.
Dex scrolled ZH + Earrings + Yellow snow shoes + chaosed broken glasses + dex scrolled bottom wear + luk scrolled topwear + MoN/ HT Necklace.

Let's say you got a 25 dex zh which is easily achievable.
10~7 dex YSS
Earrings 10 dex, chaosed broken glasses with 5 dex, rat mouth with 5 dex
Bottom wear with 15 dex
MoN
That's like 75 dex easily attained, gets you to 100 dex if you had just 25 dex.
and these are easily achievable in game, I haven't taken into consideration a pac with dex on it.
Point is, sins can easily "break the game".
And if you had 45 base dex, you'd get a sweet damage boost, don't forget that MW stacks with it all I guess, either way, if you're a pro, you'd have a HT neckalce... 30~35 dex ZH and a 7 dex+ face acc, a racc mask with decent dex, 10 dex YSS +.
Any dexless guy can break the game.

 

If there is a NRC, being a dexless sin is so brainless
All you have to do is reaching lv90, and buy a NRC (I believe that you can buy it from FM in the future)
Moreover, there is a lv55 shinobi bracer which make this even easier.....

I am not trying to weaken "the strong one". I want to weaken "the overpowered one"

 

Guys, actually do the math please. Before you start shouting OP in every other sentence.
And if your incapeable of doing simple math, look at the spreadsheet i provided earlier in this thread.

 

A well funded NL without NRC will be able to equip craven.
most people are condoning the fact a well funded NL won't have to add beyond 20 additional points to dex to equip a craven or even a dragon sleeve claw... and guess what? he gets a boost of 6 att, I think that this kind of a char overpowers the dexless.
There's no such thing as overpowered for sins, that's their damage... you'll have to live with it, even if you remove NRC, it won't have a significant nerf to sins, in fact it will motivate them to get to sleeve with the least of dex.... creating more overpowered sins than you'd have ever imagined XD
That should be fun.

 

And people apparently also forget items can be scrolled for luk instead of dex.

 

I know that too, but that's just the overall I'd say, at the end of the day, they get compensated with it with WA, which is more superior to luk...
Items than can be scrolled for luk instead of dex are really few... Shoes if you have Facestompers, you get some WA, Cape you can go full WA on both builds, however the main difference is going to be their robe/top scrolling.

So basically let's say you gave up going for dex shoes to get a WA FS and that your cape is also fully chaosed for WA, you'll have to scroll most items for Dex such as ZH, face acc, and eye acc.

I do get your point however, I would go for dexless regardless and do my best to hit the highest dex possible while maintaining a decent WA, most important equips to do so with would be FS and PAC.
Other than that you can always get a bottom with luk, scroll it for dex and chaos it to perfection.
If we're talking about a hardcore player here, it's possible to get that far, getting a topwear with dex, scrolling it with luk and chaosing it until it's like 12/12 or even 15/15.
It's just a matter of time before someone does it if NRCs are taken down, it's bound to happen at some point, chaos scrolls allow you to gain both, you can just scroll a sauna/robe with 30% luk and dex and aim to get it to be like 30/30, that would be sick as heck.
It's possible and it requires dedication...
But yeah... with the NRC you can deal more damage with way less trouble.

 

Personally this is the main reason I would support the removal of NRC for, to support low-dex builds.

Right now sins can mindless go dexless or low dex, there's no great disadvantage in choosing one over the other. But warriors and bowmen and pirates (?) usually have to bother with their secondary stats. Mages can pure stat too because of ele wands, but removing ele wands won't change a thing cause mages are arguable better off with pure int + wooden wand anyway.

With regards to sins being OP, they are a class that excel at single target combat, but they are horrible mobbers and have low survivability. I don't think this qualifies them as OP, and anyways removing the NRC wouldn't really affect their end-game potential too much. So yeah removing NRC doesn't actually nerf sins but that's not the point of removing NRCs for me.

 

I won't mind it being removed if elemental wands go too, and players are compensated with a full ap reset. I don't care that much for a single item even though ppl are wrong at this being an endgame weapon.

 

Idk I'm pretty convinced it's near end-game at least. It's like a Craven compared to a Sleve. It may not be strictly the best, but it's close enough, and the fact that it requires no dex makes it a tempting option for anyone to take them up as end-game if they're too lazy to scroll for dex.