1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

NL QoL: Increase Shadow Star's Duration Back to 3 Minutes

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Porkupine, Jul 10, 2023.

  1. Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    103
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    9:15 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    Preface: Apologies if this has already been suggested, but I did a search and couldn't find anything on this topic. I know some people are going to roll their eyes at a Night Lord asking for an easier time, but I'd love to discuss the impacts of this kind of change, and buff duration alignment in general.

    Edit: It’s been clear that a lot of people feel this is unnecessary. Thanks for everyone’s feedback!

    Suggestion:
    I am proposing a quality of life change to Shadow Star's duration from 2 minutes to 3 minutes. This would align the durations of Night Lords' three attack buff abilities. In addition, to address the impacts to meso sinkage as a result of the suggestion, I am also proposing a change to
    1) The amount of stars Shadow Star consumes on cast, and
    2) The max capacity of certain star sets.

    Alternatively, instead of changing Shadow Star’s cost of stars and max capacity, a change to the recharge cost of popular 4th job star sets could achieve similar results. However, this would affect 1st to 3rd job players using these sets.


    -----

    Context:
    Shadow Star has historically been a 2 minute buff in ML as well as GMS. After the Shadow Star bug was fixed in the Anniversary 2021 patch, its duration was increased to 3 minutes to "accommodate players and their newly found frustrations regarding star usage". The duration was then reverted to 2 minutes in the Anniversary/Summer 2022 patch, because of star demand and prices settling, as well as the meso sinkage being imbalanced for Night Lords compared to other ammo recharging classes.

    Therefore, this QoL suggestion accomodates for meso sinkage.

    Proposal:
    Shadow Star duration increased from 120 seconds to 180 seconds.
    Shadow Star star cost increased from 200 stars to 300 stars.
    Ilbi Throwing-Star and Balanced Fury maximum capacity per slot increased from 800 to 1000 stars.
    Magic Throwing Knife maximum capacity per slot increased from 1200 to 1300 stars.

    Alternative Proposal:
    Shadow Star duration increased from 120 seconds to 180 seconds.
    Ilbi Throwing-Star, Balanced Fury, and Magic Throwing Knife recharge costs increased by 50%

    Explanation:
    The proposed changes are intended to better align buff durations, while minimally impacting the economic impacts associated. The max capacity change of popular star sets like Ilbis, Furies, and MTKs also helps prevent having awkward amounts leftover.

    Since an increase in Shadow Star duration results in fewer star recharges needed, the overall ammo usage cost of a Night Lord will be affected as well. Thus, the proposed increase in Shadow Star star cost aims to preserve the current star usage of 100 stars per minute, removing any impact to star recharge meso sinkage.

    Ilbis and Furies have a max capacity of 800 in a set, up to 1000 with Claw Mastery maxed. The proposed changes to Shadow Star star cost would leave these sets with an excess of 100 stars after three uses of the skill. This isn't a problem if a player has multiple recharged sets in their inventory, but the last set will always have 100 leftover. Increasing their max capacity to 1200 with Claw Mastery would allow for four uses of the skill per set and 0 leftover in the last set. Similarly, increasing MTK to 1500 with Claw Mastery would allow for five uses of the skill per set and 0 leftover as well.

    The aforementioned alternative proposal is to increase the recharge cost of Ilbis, Furies, and MTKs by 50% to compensate for 3 minutes of Shadow Star consuming 200 stars only. This would achieve similar results meso sinkage wise, but only towards 4th job Night Lords.

    Impact:
    The proposed changes would:
    1) Allow Shadow Star, Claw Booster, and Shadow Partner to be casted together every 3 minutes, and
    2) Slightly lengthen the period between each recharge session.

    The first impact would allow for the three skills to be put together in a macro without wasting an extra rock every 6 minutes (Shadow partner every 2 mins vs 3 mins). It would also be more clear when Shadow Star has run out, since all three skills will start flashing together (the most noticable impact).

    The second impact would increase each set's usage duration by 7 to 20%.

    It is also worth nothing that since the cost of stars per cast is increasing proportionately to the duration increase, the actual meso cost per minute of Shadow Star usage on any given throwing star set is not affected. Only the time before a needed recharge is affected. This addresses the meso sink issue, which was the main reason the duration was reverted back to 2 minutes in 2022.

    Currently:
    Ilbi and Fury: 10 min per set, 68k mesos to recharge per set, 6.8k mesos per minute
    MTK: 14 min per set, 117.6k mesos to recharge per set, 8.4k mesos per minute
    Proposed:
    Ilbi and Fury: 12 min per set (+20%) 81.6k mesos to recharge per set, 6.8k mesos per minute
    MTK: 15 min per set (+7%), 126k mesos to recharge per set, 8.4k mesos per minute

    At just 1-2 minutes per set, the recharging impacts are very minimal. Furthermore, players tend to recharge before all sets have been depleted anyways. So while they have a little more time before a recharge is needed, nothing changes much for a player recharging after every few bosses.

    The adjustment to star recharge costs are aimed towards Night Lords, but Rogues, Assassins, and Hermits could be affected by increased costs if they use these sets without the benefit of Shadow Star. It is not a perfect alternative, but it removes the effects of a buff to Night Lords’ maximum star count.

    Potential arguments against proposed changes:
    • Night Lords already have some of the easiest gameplay!
    I understand that Night Lords already have a very comfortable playstyle compared to other classes, but I think aligning buff durations where it can be done for other classes can be explored as well.

    I'd like to reiterate that Night Lord game play will always be too easy and unengaging due to absurd avoidability. In my opinion, that doesn't mean inconveniences should be disregarded. It wouldn't make sense to worsen Night Lord's QoL because they have it so "easy". So why wouldn't it make sense to improve it?
    • Buff uptime management is part of what make a good player skilled!
    This a valid point but a weak one in my opinion. While it may be true that buff management is an important part of performance, I don't believe it contributes to the fun of the gameplay. Would the game be more fun if every single buff skill had a different duration? I would argue that it would just be an example of artificial difficulty. Satisfying fun should be derived from the gameplay itself of each monster/boss, not navigating through inconveniences.

    ---

    Conclusion:
    The reverting of Shadow Star duration from 3 minute to 2 minute in 2022 reintroduced an unnecessary inconvenience to the QoL of Night Lords in response to the meso sinkage issue. The proposed changes relieve these inconveniences while preserving the original intent of 2022 update. The resulting impacts are quite minimal, while the QoL of impacts of buff duration alignment would be very beneficial.

    I would love to hear people's thoughts on the topic and constructive feedback for my proposal! Feel free to disagree, but please let me know why and what changes you'd like to see that would change your opinion. Thanks for reading!
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2023
    • Disagree x 15
    • Agree x 6
    • Like x 2
    • Great Work x 1
    • Friendly x 1
  2. GDLee
    Offline

    GDLee Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

    120
    79
    145
    May 29, 2017
    Male
    New York
    8:15 AM
    AMZN
    Night Lord
    Vengeance
    I think you accurately summarized the objective of the initial SS duration buff, along with the reason for its reversion. As a NL main myself, I don't really see the different skill durations being a problem given that NLs already benefit when compared with almost every other class (aside from perhaps buccs) in potion-cost efficiency, and I don't think the initial SS duration buff should have occurred in the first place.

    The only real argument I can see under the new proposed scheme is that it's a "hassle" to have to juggle buffs with different durations. As you point out though, buff uptime management is a way of making a player pay attention to the game. For a class that's already plagued by afk-gameplay tendencies, I don't think we need more ways to sit back and hold one or two buttons for the entirety of a boss fight. In your line of reasoning, that would take away what little you have to focus on, no?

    The proposal being a strict buff to a fixed number of stars in one's inventory seems to outweigh the near zero benefit derived from aligning your skills on a macro when the skill-at-issue (SS) has effectively zero cast time. Unless BT has ideas of implementing buff timer alignment across all classes as a theme, I don't think there's enough reason to give NLs a strict buff at this point in time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Like Like x 1
  3. iPippy
    Offline

    iPippy Nightshadow

    652
    334
    345
    May 19, 2019
    Male
    9:15 AM
    iPippy
    Iron body: 300 seconds
    Rage: 240 seconds
    Power guard: 120 seconds
    Booster: 200 seconds
    Combo attack: 200 seconds
    Stance: 300 seconds

    Honestly im of the opinion that buffs in general simply last too long and enable quite a bit of degeneracy, save for maybe life critical skills like mg and mg. But changing that would require a significant change in how buffs are cast due to flashy animations not being worth casting for like a 10 second buff.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    103
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    9:15 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    I see your point, and I definitely agree as well that it isn't a large issue given SS's instant cast time and NL's already afk-like gameplay. I think the motivation behind this type of change would be to shift towards a more engaging and active playstyle fueled by interesting boss mechanics rather than a game where the objective is to make sure you don't forget to buff. By first eliminating the artificial difficulty of mismatched buff durations, different more engaging difficulty can be introduced.

    For example, to name a few, things like boss attack patterns and animations, rotating and spreading out party damage in Horntail, managing PB aggro, dodging PB sed, debuff protection timings from Holy Shield, attack positioning and uptime are all fun and skill-engaging aspects that make bossing enjoyable. Keeping buff durations mismatched shouldn't be what's keeping Night Lords awake. It should be a desire to dodge and attack effectively.

    I don't agree with the idea that QoL suggestions should be ignored because of NLs already having too little to focus on. By that logic, one could rationalize nerfing NLs QoL in various areas to give them more things to focus on and make them stay awake, aligning with the focus needed for other classes. You said yourself that it's a hassle. Realistically, it's a hassle for a lot of jobs, not just Night Lords.

    The star capacity change is hardly a buff. It's another QoL suggestion in response to SS consuming 300 stars. I wouldn't even be against reducing the capacity to make a multiple of 300.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2023
  5. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    103
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    9:15 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    I agree, however, I think the effects of excessively long durations are more felt because a lot of content is just hold 1 button for 20 minutes and watch your buffs drain down and pet fail auto pot (JC, Krex, Toad, CWK, etc). There are very few bosses with Dispel, DR, Sed, and Stun mechanics that require attention and dodging.

    For the record, I'm not entirely against reducing buff durations if it means better aligning them for all jobs and promoting a smoother, attention focussed gameply. Buff uptime can be a source of player skill, but I would just argue it isn't a good one. Especially not scanning the buff bar and trying to figure out which buff is missing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2023
  6. akashsky
    Offline

    akashsky Horntail

    2,027
    846
    495
    Jun 10, 2017
    Male
    United States
    6:15 AM
    Disparity
    Corsair
    200
    Pasta
    This is also a semi nerf when dealing with dispels.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

    2,220
    875
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    6:15 AM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    The QoL change would be to make Shadow Star 60 second duration with a 100 star cost.
     
  8. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    103
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    9:15 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    Why do you believe this would make a better change than what I proposed, or what's currently in-game?
     
  9. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

    2,220
    875
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    6:15 AM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    1. Plays around dispel.
    2. Gives you an in-game timer to use to keep track of things like boss cooldowns.
    3. Rewards player skill over laziness.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    103
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    9:15 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    1. Yes it would be a buff around dispel. The intent of my suggestion however is not to argue that NL's need any type of buff or nerf. I don't think Night Lords need a buff against dispels, rather a QoL change.
    2. This would be nice, but not a strong enough reason to make your change for in my opinion. There are ways to emulate this, like using a macro'd buff shout @epm 1
    3. Is it rewarding if it's just manufacturing a perceived difficulty in the game? Would the same logic hold if we made SS last 30 seconds? 10 seconds? 1 second? Inconveniences don't make the game any more exciting.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2023
  11. brunandes
    Offline

    brunandes Windraider

    466
    38
    296
    Aug 29, 2021
    10:15 PM
    Shadow star is so smooth that I wouldn't even consider this change a buff but rather a big nerf due to bosses like horntail that dispels. A real QOL improvement would be to decrease the shadow partner cast time.
     
  12. Rapskal
    Offline

    Rapskal Chronos

    82
    56
    103
    Nov 1, 2017
    Male
    1:15 AM
    Rapskal
    Night Lord
    Lost
    How do you not get super annoyed macroing shadow star with those skills. Personally when I tried that it made me feel restrained from freely rebuffing booster and shadow partner whenever I want cause I didn't want to run out of stars.

    The only macro I actually enjoy with Shadow Stars is Meso Up when I'm grinding, which has a 2 minute duration. When Shadow Stars was 3 minutes it only made all my macros more annoying.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. LeonardoJF
    Offline

    LeonardoJF Zakum

    1,741
    313
    460
    Jun 16, 2021
    Male
    Rio grande do Sul - BR
    11:15 AM
    ItzLeo
    Paladin
    200
    Favela
  14. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    103
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    9:15 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    It's actually not much of a nerf at all. At least not as much as one would think.

    When evaluating a case of 3 minute SS, the point at which the dispel happens affects how it compares to the 2 minute SS base case.
    A dispel at any point loses 100 stars, since the 3 minute SS took 100 more stars than 2 minute SS.
    However, if the dispel occured during the 2-3 minute mark of buff duration, 200 stars would actually have been saved, since a fresh 2 minute SS wasn't dispelled. At -100 and +200 stars, net 100 stars is saved.

    Some math:
    2/3 chance of -100 stars and 1/3 chance of +100 stars is an expected value of -33 stars given a dispel at any moment. To put that in perspective, 100 balanced furies costs 6.8k to recharge, so losing 33 stars is about 2.2k mesos per dispel assuming balanced furies.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2023
    • Like Like x 1
  15. brunandes
    Offline

    brunandes Windraider

    466
    38
    296
    Aug 29, 2021
    10:15 PM
    This is only true if every dispel is reasonably equal duration apart. In most situations however, alot of dispels are quite close together e.g. 1min apart each. This results in way more lost stars than the ev of -33. Also, it is not just cost that is the concern as use inventory space is very limited. Even losing 33 stars per min means almost 2k stars per hour, which means u need 2 more slots.
     
  16. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    103
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    9:15 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    Could you explain why you disagreed with my suggestion? I understand that you don't like macroing buffs together, but this QoL change still benefits you and keeps your buff bar tidy and in sync. Frankly, I don't see a distaste for buff macros as a strong argument against the suggestion.
     
  17. OP
    OP
    Porkupine
    Offline

    Porkupine Timer

    103
    42
    125
    Mar 21, 2019
    Male
    9:15 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    Dispels are reasonably equal duration apart. Bosses tend to have an internal cooldown for when a dispel can be recast again. The only exception to this is when a boss has two dispel timers, like a HT arm for example. As far as I know, there is no boss that successively sends out dispels 1 minute apart that isn’t also dodgable. The shortest undodgeable dispel is Horntail arm and mid head at 3 minutes when the hp is at 30%, and perhaps the PB right man statue but that is randomly targeted and inconsistent.

    My suggestion included an increase to maximum star capacities of 100-200 for furies, ilbis, and MTKs. This would offset the additional 33 stars lost per dispel. Again, 1 dispel per minute is very unlikely, and would only occur seldomly during the last 30% of a boss' hp or if you weren't trying to dodge them at all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2023
  18. beegoratto
    Offline

    beegoratto Skelosaurus

    1,204
    338
    426
    Sep 22, 2021
    Male
    6:15 AM
    leetoratto
    Bowmaster
    1
    Nimbus
    Honestly while we’re at it, can Archers also get QoL buffs too? Since NLs are already more popular and more AFK-like, it’s only fair their buff slaves get a bit of QoL too… as a treat.

    I propose if this change is implemented, Archers also receive increased Puppet, SE, Booster, Focus, and Hamstring duration to match Soul Arrow duration. I too, would like to cast all my buffs at once and take a nap.

    Edit: actually I would be happy with just Puppet duration up
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 4
  19. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

    2,220
    875
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    6:15 AM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    Would also like Triple Throw to be changed to a toggle. Would be very QoL
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  20. Ainz
    Offline

    Ainz Zakum

    1,666
    1,081
    490
    May 2, 2015
    Male
    Netherlands
    3:15 PM
    So many I keep forgetting
    0
    Just make Shadow Star work like Soul Arrow, no stars consumer but mid w.att :')
     

Share This Page