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Feedback Prestigious Coin Feedback Thread

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Nise, Nov 2, 2021.

  1. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Can only go once a week with a large expedition on a character that's level 185+ and generally requires you to spend on attack pots.
    All things considered, I think 100 points is pretty balanced, but the numbers can always be adjusted. Those were just random numbers I threw out there.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. kalash
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    Don’t add bosses like ravana or latanica. That’ll just introduce a tedious daily quest that you feel like you have to do. We get enough of that at events
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  3. renew
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    renew Orange Mushroom

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    Or simply add ws and cs into the drop table of Zak, Krex, NT, HT and PB so we have a big and nice bossing community. Pretty sure as how the prestigious coins droprate is now will make the community much happier.

    Example: Splits will be much more fun to share to the runners if a Chaos dropped, other than a gen20 book worth 10m for example. Yes people will start running 3-4men zak but then the prices will drop significant atleast. Chaos Zakum when?

    I think GMs should leave the bossing points to events and perfect it before they implenting this as a new feature in the actual game.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
  4. Aimerrhythm
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    Aimerrhythm Horny Mushroom

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    hello ,daily HT&zak run and all of the bosses? i`ll spend 10+hrs per day on maplelegends
     
  5. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    To expand on my previous trail of thought:
    If we want to make bossing more rewarding to any meaningful degree, we need to first establish what rewarding bossing looks like. I think that as a reasonable baseline, end game bossing should at the bare minimum be as profitable as raw farming ulu2, which is to say at least around 12m/hr. NT is currently slightly over half of that, and in order to close that gap via prestigious coins the drop rate would have to be increased as high as 7-8x, which would mean drop rate for coins for NT bosses would have to be roughly 40%. The astute reader might see several issues posed by this already.

    For one, if NT already has a 40% drop rate for coins, then this imposes a low ceiling on the gains of coins at other end game bossing if we are to assume no more than one coin will drop (having multiple coins drop would be clunky and would also reduce the chances of other valuable items dropping without further increasing the maximum number of drops, which again would also be clunky) as the drop rate of coins for bosses such as HT and PB could then of course only be at most 2.5x as high, while having to be split between anywhere from 6 people to 30 people. As Akash mentioned, with HT taking 3x as long and having 3x as many people, the coin drop rate for HT would have to be at least 9x as high to keep them commensurate and upwards of 30-45x as high for PB.

    Obviously this isn't possible, which is why I like what Dan had to say about making the system more granular:
    If the exchange rate is lessened from 15 coins to 1 WS to as high as something like 150 coins to 1 WS and each "coin" that drops can instead actually be a stack of several coins, then we can circumvent the issue described above while also making bossing feel less feast or famine instead of having coins be just as rare as other jackpot drops such as MW20 and MTKs.

    All of that being said, having the coin system attempt to address both the soaring WS prices and the disparity between bossing and farming at the same time is a bit of an awkward choice as it pegs the bossing gains to the price of WS while also trying to lower the price of WS. Attempting to buff the drop rate of coins to a meaningful enough degree where bossers can see real gains could very well inadvertently lower WS prices to the point that a large part of these gains would then be negated, landing us back at square one.

    I think it would be best if the prestigious coin system focused on just one issue, the runaway WS prices, and there was instead another separate system or overhaul to address bossing. One such as the one Dan described with respect to bossing points was one that I had enjoyed and entertained for some time. Being able to make incremental, tangible progress with each boss run towards valuable goods such as WS/CS would make the whole experience much more enjoyable and address the feast or famine issue. Any potential issues with muling could be addressed by imposing a damage threshold that a char must reach in order to be eligible for points (for example, that damage threshold could be 10% of boss health for NT and 1% for PB).

    Alternatively, or additionally, the droptable of bosses could be simply tweaked to include WS/CS and/or other gach-exclusive scrolls so as to not have the overwhelming majority of profits from a boss like HT, for example, be pegged solely to one-time use books whose value diminish over time without new blood.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I don’t think that’s a valid enough reason to exclude low level bossing content from bossing points. Also I think the comparison to event burnout is irreverent. Event burnout happens because there is a known end to the collection process. For the aforementioned bossing points, it’s nigh impossible to complete the dailies and will naturally be phased out of your rotations if you don’t enjoy the content itself. This will eventually shift the culture away from a completion/grind centric model to a pick your flavor type - all the while still leaving the option there for the sweaty people.

    At the end of the day, I don’t think bossing necessarily has to outweigh the time-effectiveness of farming to be viable. People have only so much time in a day to play this game, and they’re eventually going to default to whatever they enjoy doing most with their limited time. Sure, grinding might be an upfront requirement to eventually get to end game bossing content, but I see that only as a life stage in an individuals journey with this game. Same goes with farming and highly optimized strats, which were normalized because people felt the need to spend their time more efficiently. However, I think people are missing the bigger picture with the bossing points idea.

    Horntail and Zak are seen as big time investments because of the current structures developed over time, but those structures can always be changed and challenged. Imagine running 2x horntail with your entire guild bringing down the run time to something like 25-30 mins each. And then moving around together to clear Zak, then splitting off to clear NT. Sure the splits might be bad for HT, but the point is spending your time doing content you want to do, rather than min-maxing your time through sweaty farming methods. Hell, some days maybe you’d prefer to hang back and farm, and that’s entirely fine. The point is that having the option to do either bossing or farming while having that tangible sense of progress is probably the main improvement I’d want to this end game dilemma.

    As it currently stands, you can only obtain white scrolls through farming - through meso accumulation or through gacha pulls. A Bossing points exchange would be another way to make bossing more viable for end game progression.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    The drop rate is way too low to the level that I kinda forget about its presence.
    For such tiny level of "increase bossing profit" you might as well just make all the boss drop 50k money bags, instead of going through such long/complicated/customised solution.

    The whole server barely farmed 1 WS a day. This will barely dent the WS market.
    You (GM) posting this thread hinting for a full release has urged some players to sell part of their WS stash, has probably impacted the WS market more than the coin system even would.

    If another coin is created for CS, which I support. Please do not half the existing coin rate lol. It is already way too low.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  8. shck
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    shck Timer Retired Staff

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    I mean, if we combined both these ideas and award each runner Rare Gacha Tickets depending on what boss clear and amount, it should be balanced.
    Could go one step further by removing Rare Gacha Tickets from regular monster drops and buff Rare Gacha Tickets reward pool.
    Personally don't see anything that could go wrong here, but do tell me otherwise.
     
  9. halfwaysleet
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    halfwaysleet Master Chronos

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    I feel like that could work if the chance of dropping ws/cs were to be very low, it could get people to boss more often which would promote meso sink, and wouldn't be as custom as having a coin system in place which could lead to people comparing legends to less conservative/authentic servers such as royals. Downside would be slightly less meso sink since there wouldn't be a exchange tax, however so long as the drop rate was balanced relative to the difficulty of the boss it could work. Something along the lines of:
    Pap: WS = 1 in 500, CS: 1 in 400
    Zak: WS = 1 in 150, CS: 1 in 120
    HT: WS = 1 in 30, CS: 1 in 24
    PB: WS = 1 in 6 , CS: 1 in 4
     
  10. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I'm not really a fan of adding unsellable/untradeable drops to boss drop table. It becomes a mess when deciding who gets what, and it'll most likely end up getting rolled. It also does not have the same sense of character progression mentioned above.
    Alternatively, maybe smaller exchanges could be added to the bossing points exchange where bossing points could be traded in for rare gach? Similarly, things like apples, energizers, and other items that are generally used to boss could be added to the exchange as well (stews pls).
     
  11. halfwaysleet
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    halfwaysleet Master Chronos

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    There could be multiple tradeable rare gachapon drops from difficult bosses such as HT / PB, and multiple tradeable common gachapon drops from easier bosses such as Zakum, Ravana, etc
    People already sell gachapon service, this would facilitate that and also increase the supply of gachapon items not limited to ws / cs which people tend to hoard (gfa 30 price at 20m+, gma 11m+). Also wouldn't be as controversial as a coin system since gachapon drops are already a widely accepted custom feature.
     
  12. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    A points thing is really more reserved for any events, it will be hell confusing when there are "normal boss points" and "event boss points", if it even happens.
    If really going the boss point route, it should more or less follow the NT route, and use an etc to keep track. Using @points for normal boss points is just too much I feel.

    Gacha is fine as a drop, as long as it of a decent quantity that you can reliable get via roll. Like 4-6(?) gacha each HT etc.
    This probably about the gacha you will get if you just decide to farm away at ulu or something
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Thuglifer
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    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

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    u mean my old post, KEK. but naw simplicity is key as alkash mentioned, 1 extra currency rather than introducing 2 at a time. also, jobs that performs lower in dmg dealt would suffer in gaining lesser rewards than their higher dps peers, which is not ideal nor a satisfying sensation for party members.
     
  14. Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    I don’t think that two different kind of coins make it complicated, really. This could increase splits if most bosses drop both coins or create a specific niche of bosses for ea coin. I think it would be nice to gate some Chaos to NT PT 2 as auf haven circlet may be something 99% of people won’t bother to complete it, making it a content as worth doing as HT/PB.
     
  15. Feeed
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    Feeed Mr. Anchor

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    I would love to see Auf Haven getting its own White Scroll that would also act as a meso sink (e.g. 100-150M for an Auf Haven WS or something) otherwise demand for WS will be driven even higher once it's released
     
  16. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    While I'd agree that the "true" number of coins generated is lower than if the coin was fully released and people had incentive to sweat out things like low level bosses and nt, I think there's still enough for the community to get a handle on value. The rates as displayed are not enough motivation for me to want to go kill latanica at any tier of play for example, and does not further incentivize me to fight most other bosses if my goal is to hunt coin. While there's certainly other reasons to do content to factor in, coin earnings are really fairly insignificant in comparison.

    This brings with it a question which has been asked by others: what exactly is the point of the coin? To raise profits from bossing content when compared against farming/leeching content? Or is it purely an attempt to stop ws price inflation by users hoarding white scrolls who have no intention of actually using them? The numbers suggest that neither of these things will happen.

    In terms of bossing earnings, there has always been a huge disparity between the wealthy runs and the dry runs. While not inherently a bad thing, the extreme variance cannot be ignored from a player perspective. The coin system really feels like more of the same in regard to feast or famine loot, with a previously estimated 5% of NT runs now having a ~15m boost (using 230m ws and 15 coin/scroll), and 95% of runs unaffected. Over a long term, sampled boss kill averages might become normally distributed, but that's a big ask in both playtime and real world time commitment to run content enough times to beat feast or famine. All boss content is locked in the number of entries, the most notorious of which is pink bean's 1 run/week/character, and variance between "lucky" squads and "unlucky" squads is still quite egregious. Contrast this with farming/leeching content where drop variances are smoothed out within hours and "progression" is not only assured but also faster than what the wider community deems "actually playing the game".

    Allowing more than a single coin to drop could provide a way to elevate the median run value of bosses and provide players a way to see continual progression in earning coin->scrolls. I think this is why people are advocating for a boss point system. While I believe a flat, guaranteed reward is neither healthy nor thematic for this game, there is value in a slow but steady continual progression. Boss points specifically lead to a bit too much degeneracy in my opinion, tying it's worth to how many mules you can bring into a run to multiply rewards or normalizing the 30 man zak meta, which should be reserved for events imo (and no, damage thresholds are meaningless as players will just swap between their characters every couple minutes). Boss points generate rewards per character, rather than per kill, and with no multiclient restrictions opens an entire can of worms.

    Allowing multiple coins to drop, and boosting costs accordingly, would be my proposed way to deal with these issues. It allows for some variance in generated amounts if making ws in units of 1/15 is too much for a lucky latanica kill (or whatever it is planned to officially become) while still allowing for a proper way to raise minimal and maximal coin rewards from high tier kills like ht or pb (the latter of which doesn't even have a guaranteed coin drop as is). Multiple coins are also easier to split among runners of say a zak or an ht expediton as the coins are both more easily divisible and the remainder will have a smaller value in meso equivalency.

    Of course, nobody wants to be flooded with coins which can overwrite their precious facestomper drops, so here is the other half of the suggestion (and the most significant piece): give the bosses a good chance to drop a "coin bag" which rewards a variable number of coins commensurate with views on rarity/value of kill. This allows variables to be balanced such as how often latanica can drop a "low tier" bag, while horntail might have its own separate chance of dropping a "high tier" bag, containing a higher coin range than the latanica bag. Think like if bosses had a chance of dropping an item bag which contained these coins like Expert Terraria bosses, except 1/run instead of 1/player. Whether the bags are specific to bosses or simply separated into tiers is up to debate. We can also prevent people hoarding ht coin bags by giving it a 24 hour expiry or something, with a message of how many coins were obtained (the bags are supposed to be opened on the boss map basically).

    And if we drastically ramp up the number of coins generated, it makes it just a touch harder to store all of them, so at least hoarders have to devote multiple characters to storing them. We'll still have tax-free trade issues, but high end trading already dodges tax and coins as is have the same impact.

    Tl;dr What if we solve coin feast or famine by chopping the trade-in value of each coin up, putting a random number of them in goodie bags tied to boss tier, and gaining more than a binary 0-1 coin to be found?

    (Thank you for coming to my TED talk)
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. Thuglifer
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    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

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    it's not about complications, but rather, necessity, when it's not necessary warranted to be added
     
  18. KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    A system that has a lot of potential implemented poorly.
    How it is:
    I don't think this system as it is would lower the price of WS enough to make any difference. When comes to bossing, the big bosses (PB and HT) won't see any improvement in moneymaking, this could affect mostly a boss like Zak which money-making potential is always low, or the duo/trio bosses where runners most likely know each other and can share coins 50/50 and directly get the price. I don't know if you guys got the numbers but it seems far easier to collect coins from shorter bosses like Jiao, NT than from bosses that need more commitment like HT.

    How I would improve it:
    -Increase the number of coins needed to get a reward higher, like perhaps 30 coins.
    -Make bosses that need more commitment drop more, for example, PB dropping from 3 to 6 per run, HT dropping from 1 to 3, NT having a good chance of dropping 1 coin (after the huge nerfs I suggested on another post: 1-hour timer, needing to do around 20m damage to the boss to get any NT coins. Perhaps more stuff about that on a post) and the same drop rate that we have now in the rest of the bosses and remove Latanica and Pap from the list of bosses, they are too easy.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Thuglifer
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    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

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    i don't think removing it totally is the way to go, this system should be made available to players entering the boss scene and get a feel of the coin drops and it's content usage. I'd rather a lower drop rate (lower than zak) of the coin at latan/papu/rav.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    Wondering if its worth making 100 Hero mules to jiaoceng 24/7.

    Relatedly, my new ML setup:
    81Bc6AMmkGL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

    /sarc
     
    • Creative x 3
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    • Like x 1
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