Re-balance CDs or buff other relevant content

According to ML library.
CD have exp/hp ratio of 800/8500 (94exp per 1k hp) and 700/7900 (88exp per 1k hp)

Deep Ludi.
Dual ghost pirate. 1500/35000 (42exp per 1k hp)
Master death teddy. 1720/40000 (43exp per 1k hp)
Spirit Viking. 2100/50000 (42exp per 1k hp)

Don't nerf CD please. I want my 2x exp map.

 

All of 3rd job plus hp scales badly, and this is something the balance team has ignored no matter how many times it's pointed out. You go from being able to 2-3 shot most things around your lvl with mob attacks in 1st to 2nd job to literally 5-10 shotting things with mob attacks in 3rd job. This is why mannies were and cds are kinda popular, they were a bit better balanced, which was probably an oversight when the content was ported. It'll probably be "fixed" as a bug.

4th job you do get a pretty significant damage bonus but the reality is you just keep leveling higher than the monsters so eventually you're doing enough damage. Not like there's anywhere decent to train 4th job other than showlin anyway, tot's too spread out / too low spawn, lefrea / singapore has already dropped off at that point, NT is literal cancer.

This is why literally almost everyone leeches most of 3rd job, or at least the last half of 3rd job.

 

HP/EXP ratio isn't everything, especially when your damage spikes in the 3rd job. Mob count and respawn rate are additional factors.
CDs are OP because it's easy and meta. Prior to the map changes, people were saying party grinding for higher map efficiency was unreasonable. There may be off-meta maps out there that will give a higher yield, but people are not willing to break away from comfort of meta maps until they're spoon fed the next.

 

I feel like that's pretty dismissive of what is actually a huge leveling issue right now. Plenty of people in this thread point out the "off-meta" options being inferior with actual exp/hr measurements.

It's sad that when I ask around if I can leave CDs at 110 (mind you I have been here since 7x) - the answer is resoundingly "no" and that I should look into buying a leech since even CDs is relatively slow at this point.

In my opinion, this range of levels just needs some love in terms of looking at how alternatives can be buffed.

 

What exactly is this 'huge leveling issue'? Never before has it been this easy to grind a character to lvl 120.
Your response pretty much confirms my post that people don't care to break outside of the meta. Asking people questions about things they don't know about isn't really going to help.

 

And I thought the balance team was being toxic / dismissive lately.

 

Like for starters, you're being factually inaccurate. Pre mannies nerf was the easiest time to grind those levels, as boring as mannies was.
For a 2nd point you're completely dismissing everything they say without providing an actual counter argument, just telling them to listen to other people who know better / implying they should just listen to their betters (presumably you). What the fuck man, that is so toxic.

 

CDs is better exp than mannequins was tho since you can party and get HS without the agro being completely screwed.

 

You guys first complain that CDs are over powered. Then you ask for other maps to be buffed to 'balance' out the overpowered state of 3rd job grinding at CDs. Do you not see the direct contradiction?

Can you please explain to me why you think CDs are all of a sudden overpowered? Why are CDs now 'meta' when they weren't before? Was there a buff recently to increase their exp or spawn rate?

Mannequins were 'overpowered' not because of the HP/EXP ratio. It was overpowered because the mobs auto-aggro'd towards you like a vac hack. You didn't have to party because the map literally did all the work for you. And even still, at the pinnacle of its degeneracy, Mannes wasn't even comparable exp-wise to party-grinding at Gallos. Want to know something funny? CDs have always been better than Mannequins. People just didn't know how to optimize the map because it wasn't meta at the time.

My guess is that there probably is a map out there that the balance team knows about that we haven't discovered yet. And yet we will continue to get threads like this every week from players complaining about a shortage of maps and viable grinding spots. I'd roll my eyes too if I were them.

Also, before you call anybody out for being 'factually incorrect', please do your due diligence and back up your accusations with numbers and 'facts'.

 

While there was no change in spawn rate or exp for CDs, they did have a change in their drops where the 3 extra mobs that spawn per kill are the ones that drop meso/items instead of the initial mob. This change made it so you could at least break even with the pot burn while grinding there. It's a small but still notable change that might have contributed to the maps popularity. I remember going to CDs on a warrior before this change and the loss of money for quick grinding was not insignificant, especially for newer players/anyone lacking funds.

With that said, I wholeheartedly agree that mannes was a ridiculously overpowered map, even more so because you could solo grind, and that the grind itself to 120 is probably easier than it's ever been. I think there is just the perception of difficulty because of the increase in population causing an oversaturation of leeching and seeking the meta grind spot. When all you see are people selling leech or a single grind spot taken in every channel, you could get discouraged on your way to lvl 120. Before I followed the forums, looked up guides, and found the best spots for leveling, I was leveling my 110 i/l at nintos/jonins, eventually going to gallos, and even still taking 3-4 hours to level once because i didn't have a party. Imo there are plenty of places to level for late 3rd job, its just that CDs happen to be a good deal faster. This doesn't make maps like gallos or himes downright garbage and are actually really good maps.

To think about it in a different perspective, the balance team decided to nerf mannes and made a few changes to CDs because people determined that map was too overpowered. They likely do take these suggestions seriously and consider the changes they make (maybe not all the time what with nerfing pallies to death) yet they are receiving quite a lot of shit for a balance that people wanted (It's not like I supported the mannes nerf, but I understand why they did it). You would be a bit annoyed too if you follow a suggestion only to be told you're doing a bad job. To say the balance team is being dismissive and toxic is a huge overstatement. It was mentioned somewhere that while they try to be as transparent with their changes, that they don't tell us everything that they might or might not balance. It's unrealistic and frankly inefficient to expect them to reveal every thought, suggestions, and decision to make changes. Wanting maps to be rebalanced to better match late 3rd job isn't a bad thing (and I'm all for buffing less popular maps), but -ovv is right that people refuse to break out of the meta when easy grinds are right in front of their faces. If you really want the balance team to take suggestions seriously, there needs to be proof that no maps can compare to CDs, himes, gallos. Have you gone to every possible map and tested eph, meso gain, etc? Likely no one has cuz there is no way in hell I would do that. I get people can be toxic, but getting extremely defensive and throwing it back at them detracts away from the initial point.

 

Yes, I was aware of the changes they made to CDs and the drops. I don't think that is what made CDs desirable, however.

Larger maps have historically been unfavorable for people in this server because this server was obsessed with solo-grinding. We were stuck in a solo-play paradigm. People would solo grind and self-buff with their mules, and this was considered optimal play (outside of self-leeching) because it was self-sufficient and independent of uncontrollable factors like having a party member readily available. Ultimately, it was considered inefficient to rely on party members to train together because this server was small and fairly empty pre-COVID. Mannes didn't require HS. Mannes didn't require someone else to be online. You could grind there for 8 hours straight, only leaving periodically to repot and sell all your equips. There was nothing stopping you from doing this, so why bother doing anything else?

With the population boom, older playstyles re-emerged. Friends started playing on this server together. Party play was finally seen as something 'normal' and not 'sub-optimal'. We finally had a population that was willing to try things out differently. It broke the meta, and a new meta emerged.

You say that you tested out CDs with your warrior and left because of pot burn. Can I ask - did you have a party member killing the other platforms? Did you get party exp bonus + HS bonus? Did you have a party member that could provide higher-tier buffs like Echo, SE, SI? These are huge factors that could have swayed your decisions as to whether the pot burn was worthwhile or not.

This way of testing should be applied everywhere.
As you said yourself, when you first started, you resorted to looking up guides that, in hindsight, were probably really outdated. You can even see it right now. People still train at GS2 and think that's the best experience they can get at that level because they asked someone, and that person also honestly believes that too. Does that make it true? Not necessarily.

 

This was before CDs were popular (or maybe the population was still around 600, can't remember) so there was no one to party with and I usually like solo-play anyways. That along with not having higher tiered buffs definitely made the experience less desirable, but I don't think it should be an expectation that these things are readily available. That goes more into optimizing for fastest possible grind. The pot burn issue was really more applicable to players that aren't rich and have a ton of mules, and relying on a party member to have these things would just make it less desirable for me personally. I just wanted to mention the change in the CD drops, not to claim it was decisive factor in making it the meta.

I think the application of testing those possibilities is good, but it shouldn't be considered a conventional approach as it heavily favors older players with tons of mules without the consideration of different playstyles or time investments in the game. At best, I have access to hs and hb, which are still monumentally useful for grinding. Even with following those likely outdated guides, they were still relatively viable. I'm definitely not a player who's seeking to break into the new meta so I don't mind suboptimal spots. If a player wants to be as efficient with their grind as possible, then I think its worth seeking spots that could be better than gs2 or CDs that have yet to be discovered. People seem to want variety in grind spots because its mind-numbing to stay at CDs for 50 levels, but claim that other viable spots are just not worth it (despite himes and gallos being a perfectly fine spot) because it gives less exp. Granted this is applicable every meta-defining map (especially shaolin) so I'm not sure why the lvl 70-120 grind needs to be specified.

 

We sign an NDA when joining the staff of MapleLegends. Why demand answers that can't be legally given? Why assume we're being dismissive or toxic when it's been stated that everything is being looked at behind the scenes? Balance Team doesn't decide who's privy to what information. Honestly it's been a mistake to post about anything at all, everyone's mental state is better off just being in the chill discords/guilds.

 

One interesting change is that CDs has recently discovered as a leech spot. In my last few trips there, about half the maps are now taken by leechers. Surprisingly, the other channels weren't as full as I remember during peak covid. A lot of people just soloing/duoing.

After lvl 90, I think himes, gallos, nintos and even censers beat out CDs for classes with cleave.

 

No sounds because my mac doesn't record sounds and I'm just too lazy to figure it out, yeah I know "Ew Macs" XD
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My view of this situation is there are many players with the mindset of "If i'm not getting this amount of exp per hour at this level bracket, the map or my class should get some kind of buff."

There are plenty of maps to train at, though the exp per hour will not be as great as desired, the maps are still available for use, perhaps the class a person plays has already gotten a nice buff or two already, but that still doesn't seem like enough for a select few players, it really seems like the players that are never satisfied are those that complain the most and the loudest.

Thinking about maplestory during 2005-2007 many of these nice areas were not available to players, it was zombies and bains, then it switched to gobies, then himes and skeletons, only when they were added that the original "best maps for training" became second best, and seeing it happen here too, every guide i read, or post about it seems to imply that unless you go to THESE maps or party with THESE buffs, then you need to complain more for map or class improvements to "balance things out again".

 

Every class should have flash jump and teleport and all have the same capacity to grind and boss. Make every map have the exact same layout for maximum braindead leveling. This is the only true balance./s

 

1. I think Dual Ghost Pirate map has a really good spawn rate that even if you solo train in a single lane, particularly bottom lane, it still respawns so quick independent of map clear (you don't need to climb and clear the top lanes). But with a vertically-structured map, and an already great spawn rate, a buff in its mob EXP would make it a solid party-grind map.

I personally farm mesos and boxes there and I just solo-clear the bottom lane when I'm bored.
Drop-wise they drop Cape for INT 60% (which may not be in the best price in the market right now, but it is something), as well as Green Pirate Blouse/Skirt, Brown Osfa Pants (F) (especially the 4 DEX skirts/pants which are scroll-worthy), Gun30s AND ALSO power crystal ores & Black crystal ores which hold some value in FM-sale.

They do not have a lot of weapons which hold better NPC-prices but the equipment drop rate is pretty fair in my current experience.
A buff in EXP would DEFINITELY make it a worthy alternative for grinders & non-leechers.




2. I know I may have preached this idea one too many times, but may I actually enquire the reasoning behind not considering removal of Taos from CWKPQ bonus?

It honestly would revive Night Shadows (which was already proven in the past to be a worthy alternative for grinding) as an alternative area for grinding with meso-making potential. Considering the hovering fear that shadow-star bug is a pending fix, everyone seems frantic to hoard Balance Furies now as it seems crazy for a regular player to afford 10-20 MTKs even if they are priced at a low 140m. As of now Night Shadows do not even drop any valuable equipments, and its location has a shitty travelling route to arrive at. While taos used to sell for whopping 9-15m each back in 2017, it is obvious that no one in their right mind would travel to Cavern of Honor to grind and collect badges for Taos when CDs are so much easier to travel toward, and Taos are a crappy 100k per piece.

While the demand of Balance Furies increase, removing Taos from CWKPQ not only revives Cavern of Honor and CWK grinding maps, it actually further boosts its popularity considering the new players and grinders who opt not to leech can actually opt to MAKE ACTUAL MESOS selling Taos in the exchange quest.

Furthermore, removing taos from CWKPQ bonus DOES NOT BREAK/EVEN HURT CWKPQ VALUE as they still drop a shit-ton of valuables, and provide MON.

However having Taos drop in CWKPQ bonus COMPLETELY NULLS CWK grinding areas like Cavern of Honor & Cavern of Fear, value of Taos and ultimately Balance Furies.

This "removal" will also revive Cavern of Fear, as Firebrands actually drop FlameKeeper Cordons and Stormbreakers drop Overall for INT 60%. Their badges are where you get Tao of Sight.

If we are to promote nostalgia-MS, (welcome back exchange quest and RNGesus) I am very curious as to why this idea was not even considered when it has been suggested time and time again - and no reason was given as to why they are not even considered.

 

When I say you're being toxic and dismissive, this message is the largest culprit by... hmm, that name looks familiar.

To be blunt, this conveys that you think the entire playerbase is too stupid to realize what a 75% nerf to a skill, that for the particular boss in question, was probably the main damage source for lower level palis. Not only that, it completely dismisses all the points brought up. Claiming that I'm demanding you give us information personally is a ridiculous misconstruction of my complaint. The complaint is you're being dismissive, e.g., claiming people should "just try out a 75% damage nerf" while pretending the entire playerbase is too stupid to know exactly what that will do. In addition, the way this nerf in particular was handled on the fourms response from the balance team was particularly toxic, even if you claimed you were trying not to be toxic later on.

People don't necessarily have a problem with nerfs if it's justified and an alternative is improved so a player can continue to progress. E.g., the alchemist nerf sucked but the now reverted crit change was introduced at the same time to try to compensate, even though it wasn't particuarly well thought out (funny how the alchemist nerf is still there). But this is the third time I can think of in the last 9 months where major nerf has occured and no alternative has been improved as compensation.
E.g., Nerfing mannies without even bothering to attempt to fix something else for 3+ months. Sure you've tried buffing a few mannies level maps 3-6 months later, the only one that's even remotely stuck is cds which are pretty exclusionary to the majority of players due to how populated it is. It's almost like it and mannies are meta maps because they had a good exp to hp ratio, not because "the gm's said they're meta".
Nerfing showlin / making it worse to traverse (because fuck playability) only to buff nt which is literally cancer to train at, hhg1 will probably be a meta training spot for lvl 130+ before NT at this rate.
Nerfing hammer without even attempting to resolve it, then saying "we'll totally buff you later, in 3 months, ignore the fact that you're now useless / hit with a 40-60% nerf in the most important boss in the game". This was extremely careless and realistically is just a slap in the face for players.

Actions speak louder than words, nerfing something to such an extreme, e.g., treating all palis as mules, says a lot more than empty promises to buff them "when you get around to it". The fact that you didn't even TRY to buff them shows that you consider mules to be more of an issue than the ability to play the game / participate in bosses, etc. for newer players, or even existing players.