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Reduce mtk recharge price

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by kalash, Jun 10, 2021.

  1. kalash
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    Now that there's no more shadow-star bug, the recharge price of mtk should really be discussed.

    Ever noticed how recharging mtk costs 60k, while steelies/ilbis/furies/everything costs like 1k? No? Well.. Now you know. Enjoy paying 1.2m for recharges every ht run for that 1 extra attack.

    Don't say "but they have bigger stacks", cuz thats the 300m? vs 40m? after these changes already.
     
    • Agree Agree x 10
  2. Hiyo
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    Hiyo Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    What if other stars' recharge price were brought up to be more in line with MTKs in a proper and progressive way (low attack stars have cheaper recharge prices and it goes up as attack goes up)
     
    • Agree Agree x 11
  3. porl
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    porl Mixed Golem

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    MTK's take far more investment to craft: the extra 1 attack and 200 stars isn't really worth it post Shadow Star fix. It should be the preferred stars, given it's status as the highest attack stars available.

    This change would incentivize people to go after multiple sets of MTKs instead of Furies. This also would likely further add value/profit to NT content (which is widely accepted to be lacking). Making the recharge cost for MTKs far more reasonable is a good idea. The stars below MTK can still be used when progressing through the game and you can imagine the time it would take to obtain multiple sets of MTKs
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    I am sorry to inform you that this is not possible because I crafted a set a week before the maintenance.
     
  5. OP
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    kalash
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    that could be fair too
     
  6. Diziple
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    Diziple Pac Pinky

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    Higher tax for the rich.
     
  7. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    We haven't even seen in-game how the changes affect the market/meta/players, so I think its a bit premature to decide at the moment. But this, along with some other suggestions players have suggested are definitely on our radar, if we determine it to be a necessary change ^^
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. OP
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    kalash
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    First of all, thanks for the reply during these busy times.

    Secondly, you won’t need to see the effect to know how something is unbalanced, right?
    I’ll tel you what’s going to happen
    Balanced fury prices are going to increase quite a bit for a few weeks or months. Then some recharge balance is introduced after everyone has gotten their inventories packed with furies, tanking the fury price and skyrocketing mtk demand for the end-game NLs

    This (I expect to be unwanted) bubble effect can be avoided quite easily by simply balancing the recharge prices. Either lowering the mtk or increasing other stars by their attack value. I’d suggest simply lowering the mtk for now since that’s much less wz searching work. Then the recharge prices can always be increased later as long as it’s balanced. That way no one will regret buying a certain star.

    I get that the staff is overblown atm, but it might be worth considering for 10 minutes to avoid some weird market effects and people gambling on changes
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. ngrman
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    ngrman Stone Golem

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    Just use all the money saved by recharging steelys into recharging mtks
     
  10. jeff22222
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    jeff22222 King Slime

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    Does this also include possibly increasing starcount for the likely popular ilbis and furies now o.o. Keeping it at 1k and if HT is going to dispel more on time now, bringing an extra 4-5 sets to compensate from star loss is going to be more meta. Or i guess forcing NLs to apple more or completely avoiding midhead/left arm DPs for the longer runs which i guess is also fine.
     
  11. BananaPie
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    BananaPie Selkie Jr.

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    Maybe it's time for NL's to keep DP timers. If you know the next 3min/5min dp will occur in 30seconds then dont use shadow star.

    Especially if the patch does what it say it does and there won't be any delay to DP.
     
  12. jeff22222
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    jeff22222 King Slime

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    Is this a meme reply or what o.o you can try to be greedy but not attacking until it DPs or even just normal attacking without ss is a grief. I keep timers for the group but it doesnt matter? Someone should be keeping timers and relaying that information anyway...
     
  13. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Well big picture, we have a problem with potentially excessive meso generation (which our patch tries to deal with). The traditional meso sink (for raw mesos) is bossing & the associated potion costs. For thieves, a lot of this cost gets avoided due to the high avoid + shifter. To counter-act that, for NLs there's the star recharge costs to act as a supplemental sink. In MSEA, the release of MTKs were supposed to be a huge meso sink to curb the highly inflated economy at the time.

    For the past 5 years NLs have used the shadow star bug to skimp out on recharge prices, sort of like how we used to do 1mil etc for split payments to avoid taxes. Rather than balancing compared to what was considered "normal" during the shadow star bug era, it would be much more appropriate to balance it with the new norm, taking into account a variety of stuff:
    • The overall economic impact of the sweeper change
    • The overall state of the economy post-sweeper change and whether mass raw meso generation strategies continue to be prevalent
    The two things above would help us determine just how much of a meso sink is necessary (or if at all). That would affect just how much we would reduce MTK recharge prices or if we'd raise the other star recharge prices up or somewhere in between or not changing it at all. Then there's also:
    • Whether the BF supply will be strangled like what is expected by players (too high demand and not enough supply) and lead to a permanent price increase beyond reasonable amounts
      • There has been a surplus of Taos created by CWKPQ over the past few years, meaning there might just be enough supply to satisfy the rise in demand
      • There were also people that predicted the fix of shadow star, resulting in crafting before hand, meaning there might not be as much demand as envisioned by players when server goes live
      • The new CWK Exchange has BFs as a reward, and the additional source of BFs might be enough to help match the demand
    This means, it's completely possible the actual supply won't be as strangled as people think. Additionally, there's also questions related to the actual pricing/valuation of these stars.
    • Whether we should even compare recent BF prices directly with whatever the price will be. The recent prices of BFs have also been incredibly low, and that shouldn't be considered the standard that we compare to.
      • Because of the shadow star exploit + release of MTKs, BFs didn't really have any value (not just monetarily, but in terms of desirability). Why get BFs, when you can get 1 set of MTKs and just all steelies?
      • Because of the over abundance of Taos from CWKPQ, crafting BFs only really cost the black crystals
    • Any effects directly after the patch could just be a knee jerk reaction & panic (which would've happened anyway to any star commodity - MTKs or BFs - following shadow star fix).
    This also means even with or without any compounding changes to the recharge costs/number of stars in a set, prices would've bounced up either way. By taking our time with it, we can see the cause & effect clearer.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  14. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Lowering recharge cost makes little sense to me as does other suggestions about lowering craft price. IMO, the recharge price of other stars need to be scaled to match with the MTK recharge cost. But for the case of MTKs specifically, you get an additional cast of shadow star (assuming no dispels) from the slot efficiency, and the item itself is already classified as a luxury good. I'd put this cost in the same category as expendable use weapons like diamond arrows. Most people aren't going to be using MTKs for non-economic fights like HT, but they might be more inclined to during fights like Pink Bean. Whether this plays a role in the ultimate market price of MTK, that's another issue.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  15. jeff22222
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    jeff22222 King Slime

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    Keepign the recharge cost is fine and makes sense. For BMs/MMs theyre already using more pots and if you want the +4 atk from arrows minimum cost is like 800k for the sets you need or 1.5ish mil with diamond arrows if you need them? When i use my MM i bring in 12 sets and they all poof in a 6man
     
  16. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Rate of consumption should be a factor. Coincidentally, I think corsairs use fewer bullets in Pink Bean than in Horntail due to being able to better manage boat uptime.
    Edit: I take that back. NERF CORSAIRS.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Cornwall
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    Cornwall Chronos

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    My only concern on star counts for NLs is mainly for Horntail where you're forced to bring in enough stars for a 3-4 hours expedition since basically everyone runs twice. With SS fixed now NLs are forced to get more top tier quality stars to compensate for the loss of WATK but at the same time, it is kind of really end game to get a full stock of 20 MTKs for 2 HT (which is close to the amount of stars you use on 2 runs if you Shadow Star correctly). The immediate solution for most NLs will be to make a combination of stars that balances their WATK and start building up, say: 4 MTKs, 6 balance furies, and then reserve of illbis/hwabis. However, in this scenario, the top-tier stars would most likely run out in the first HT run.

    This would require NLs to either: i) organize their star use to always get good stars on each run (say only use half of the top tier on first run and other on second run) OR ii) recharge stars after first run. I think that's a big hit on 3k NX myu myu for each HT. Granted, one NL can recharge stars for other NLs (even any class can recharge, however you'd lose the stars from lack of claw mastery), but it still seems kind of unreasonable to have to spend NX on each run (especially when you're a heavily HP wash dependent class) so much because of the way HT is designed where you spawn inside the cave and only get a single elixir per quest. I think we could either increase the number of elixirs you get per quest to allow people to go out and recharge OR maybe add an NPC inside the cave solely for the purpose of buying minor pots (non %-based) and recharging stars.

    I don't know if any other boss in maple has the particularity of hindering you from repotting after a first run so this is why I find it particularly troubling for NLs in HT. Ok, this too applies for corsairs which have been living with this problem all along. Yet their bullets are cheaper and also last longer (I believe 15-18 sets of bullets per 2 runs?). With these suggestions, they would benefit as well though.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. OP
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    kalash
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    Thanks for the comprehensive response. I agree that meso sinks are definitely needed and NLs are definitely the cheapo in terms of pots. So perhaps it’s good to just raise the other recharge prices too. Lower level folk can use ilbi as luxury (as it’s intended to be) while a cheaper option would be steely or even icy (bought via the raven ninja clan).

    I made this suggestion mostly to avoid the issue where everyone stacks BF now to avoid the recharge cost, only to have to put the recharge cost in later anyhow and regretting their decision.

    Perhaps a cost like mtk=60k and every tier that you go lower reduces 5k or so. That’d make shubis super cheap (I think there’s more than 12 tiers right?) while the more atk you get the more cost there is. Ofc those numbers can be changed later, but 60k vs 1k is kind of a big gap, even if it’s temporary.

    Star sets below ilbi are free anyhow. Might as well have to pay a bit to use steelies over wolbies or smth. That might make those stars actually useful too
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  19. OP
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    I guess this can be marked as accepted after the discussions. Sadly I can’t seem to change the title, as it should say rebalance instead of reduce
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1

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