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Remove weapon level upgrade until it's too late

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Toon, Nov 1, 2020.

  1. Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    Before the update, i rember a max att timeless lampion claw had 61 att in library. now it can go much further. I know PB is gonna be really hard and we still dont know if its duable but we have to preserve the rest of the content in this game. With perfect timeless, people gonna restart running 4 man HT. Furthermore, more and more players run HT so it’s not reasonable to revive those kind of squads (pallies, dexbucc and sed changes were adressed because of them). Actually, perf timless without levelling and well scrolled FCs are already pretty overpower. Another thing is that nt is going to be irrelevant. Any bad reverse leveled up might overcome nt weps. In this sense, 61 claw would still be something to aim and kill pb but 57 claw continue to be a good claw. So please, reconsider level upgrade and thanks for all the effort and to bring new content.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    People already run 4 man HT.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. OP
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    Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    Many more people might run. Ht and nt must stay balanced
     
  4. jack0506
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    jack0506 Blue Snail

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    Totally agreed
     
  5. IHearColors
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    IHearColors Timer

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    Check the Pink Bean post again. They already mentioned that the weapons will only range +/- 2 weapon attack from its average, meaning a perf clean Timeless Lampion will have 58 wa, not 61. They said the library will give incorrect information until they get around to fixing it. Idk if this would apply to other equips besides weapons, but so far only wa has been mentioned.

    The level up mechanic does make these weapons absurd, but you still have to keep in mind that the stats given per level also has a range (wa can increase 0-2 per level up). That means in order to get a free extra 6-12 attack on a timeless weapon (6 is the average wa you can gain from lvl up and 12 is the max), you have between a 8.2% to .129% to get this range, with the chances obviously decreasing the higher the wa you want. Granted a free 6 attack is still huge, but you'll need to get at least 12 perfect weapons before you get that based solely on probability. Wanting an absolutely perfect Timeless Lampion for example, would require you to get 775 58 attk claws. Factoring in that all weapons won't have max attack, you're looking at finding 3875 weapons before you can get a 70 attack claw (and that's before you even start scrolling). Of course this the an absolute extreme of sweaty perfectness. But yeah if we compare a clean speargrave at 57 attack to a leveled up lampion with 64 attack (+6 added from level up), its pretty insane.
     
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  6. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    the actual history of 1st successful 4men HT in ML is 2k17, which I hosted, as I know.
    pretty sure there are some teams have doing HT with lesser ppl than 6s. (even though they bring lots of mules for it.) since it's already late of 2020.

    Btw, I was always curioused why ppls argue with "balance" stuffs considering perfecting every stuffs. getting perf clean, and hit max watk raising for every lvling, WS+10 for all slots, and they put that gear on their scale. was that so common for you guys to measure it as standard of balance? idk. but at least, not for me.

    I hope to ask not only to OP, but to all debaters - what is exact meaning of "balanced" you guys telling? Hope you remind that term shouldn't be used for "satisfaction for myself".
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I have to disagree here. The ML staff said that they will make the items untradable after equip (in a future update). The tradeoff from being unable to share / sell your perfect item makes sense for it to be significantly stronger.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  8. Skuire
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    Skuire Nightshadow

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    ^What Akash said. The fact that these things are untradeable after equip is a GIGANTIC nerf to their perceived viability. Only the sweatiest TriHards with three simultaneous farming mages and 30k HP NLs are gonna want to minmax these things. The top 0.01% of players.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    They already released the claw ranges within that pink bean thread. Let's ignore how broken timeless weapons can be because at least they are gated by pink bean at the moment. If we shift our focus to reverse weapons, to me it feels like they are still overtuned. A reverse lampion has a range of 51-56. Let's stick to averages here. On average your lampion will end up 53-54 att and will gain +3 att over the course of leveling 3 times. This means you will end up with a 56-57 att claw, if you are slightly lucky then GG you have already outpaced the power curve of an NT claw, something that cost >800m just 2 days ago. The cost of these claws seems to be negligible as all you need is a shitty NT weapon and the time to farm 45 time pieces.

    On average a reverse weapon will already be as strong as a perfect NT weapon. To me, that seems problematic. Crafting NT weapons results in a 9% chance to end up with something with perf w.atk (lets just ignore the luk stat for the sake of argument and if my numbers are wrong here please correct me; I just assumed it works the same as dragon weapon crafting). I feel like if the probability for a reverse weapon to turn out >NT weapon was 20% or lower, then yeah you could make a case for balance. At this point, perf NT weapons seem to have been made completely worthless when you have a >40% chance that any random reverse lampion you craft will end up better than an NT claw.

    The truth is you don't need to min max in order to end up with a reverse weapon that is stronger than an NT weapon. If you look at the numbers it is simply just too easy; chances are you will end up with something slightly better or even significantly better with just 2 craft attempts.
     
  10. Crayo
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    Crayo Chronos

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    People never stopped doing 4 man HT lol.
     
  11. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    They already released the claw ranges within that pink bean thread. Let's ignore how broken timeless weapons can be because at least they are gated by pink bean at the moment. If we shift our focus to reverse weapons, to me it feels like they are still overtuned. A reverse lampion has a range of 51-56. Let's stick to averages here. On average your lampion will end up 53-54 att and will gain +3 att over the course of leveling 3 times. This means you will end up with a 56-57 att claw, if you are slightly lucky then GG you have already outpaced the power curve of an NT claw, something that cost >800m just 2 days ago. The cost of these claws seems to be negligible as all you need is a shitty NT weapon and the time to farm 45 time pieces.

    On average a reverse weapon will already be as strong as a perfect NT weapon. To me, that seems problematic. Crafting NT weapons results in a 9% chance to end up with something with perf w.atk (lets just ignore the luk stat for the sake of argument and if my numbers are wrong here please correct me; I just assumed it works the same as dragon weapon crafting). I feel like if the probability for a reverse weapon to turn out >NT weapon was 20% or lower, then yeah you could make a case for balance. At this point, perf NT weapons seem to have been made completely worthless when you have a >40% chance that any random reverse lampion you craft will end up better than an NT claw.

    The truth is you don't need to min max in order to end up with a reverse weapon that is stronger than an NT weapon. If you look at the numbers it is simply just too easy; chances are you will end up with something slightly better or even significantly better with just 2 craft attempts.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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  13. MeatSlam
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    MeatSlam Mushmom

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    We really don't need 2 threads but ill post it here as well

    Just wanted to say y'all are significantly underestimating how long/expensive getting 45 pieces of time will be. It was just an initial test but I grinded at obv4 for about an hour and found 0. A friend on my BL had similar results.

    If Pieces of Time are 1-2 per hour (highly doubt it will be any where close to 3), then it will take 20-40 hours to farm enough to make 1 weapon. 4500 coins is much much much much much easier to get then 20-40 hours of grinding not to mention you need a NT claw to begin with.
     
  14. Cerulean
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    Cerulean Brown Teddy

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    I think this also applies to the reverse weapons, right? There are lots of posts with concerns that reverse weapons are too unbalanced compared to NT, but realistically speaking, it seems unlikely that anyone would be willing to dump dozens of white scrolls on a weapon that is both a) untradeable after equipping, and b) not the best weapons in the game.
    If anything, it seems like reverse weapons would serve more as sort of a "mid-game" equip that people can get decent att if they're lucky with landing some 30%s, but not something that really competes with end-game perfect weapons.
     
  15. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    That's assuming it is going to be:
    1. Easy to farm (45 pieces as mentioned by MeatSlamMeatSlam is not easy)
    2. Easy to level up (item level up exp is a mystery until you guys try leveling it up ;) but it's not an "easy" process imo, especially because it needs to be equipped to level up. If you have multiple reverse/timeless pieces equipped the level up rate gets lowered)
    3. That its a standard 1/3rd chance to get 0, +1, and +2. Won't confirm if this is the case or not, but just pointing out its an unconfirmed assumption.
    4. That it's strength far as a slightly better NT weapon far outweighs the character-lock aspect of the weapon.
     
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  16. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    All valid points, but for #3 Alyosha stated in this thread that it was an even distribution for probabilities: https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/timeless-reverse-weapons-balancing-issue.35084/

    I would just say it is much easier to start on the weaker end and buff these items up, than it is to start on the stronger end and then nerf items down; not even sure the latter (or either of these tbh) is possible.
     

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