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Shads have mediocre damage and utility. We need more love.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by tobymcxs, May 29, 2021.

  1. tobymcxs
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    tobymcxs Slime

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    8:19 PM
    Shadower
    [Change My View] Don't make a shad if you want to do damage or provide party utility.

    Assassinate is a terrible, terrible skill in terms of being your main bossing ability:
    • Range is too short compared to other melee classes' bossing skills
    • The Dash is a gimmick that needs to be reworked, crit damage on dash is currently bugged (?)
    • Has a longer cast time than other Powerblast, Spear Crusher, and Brandish. You are more "afk" when you use Nate.
    • Cannot be used mid-air like the other former 3 mentioned; only if you jump and cast nate at the same time. This is why you'll see Heros doing cardio at 7F (fast cast time on brandish + mid-air usage) while Shads jerk off on the 3rd shelf on the left hand side with the occasional assaulter here and there.
    • Simply less DPS ; Shit range, shit cast time, shit damage. All in one package.

    Party Utility : Smokescreen is might as well not exist
    • 45 seconds of party invincibility every 5 minutes. It's not a necessary skill for parties to have, it's a luxury.
    • So let's see, a party "buff" that:
      • Only has a 15% uptime compared to almost every other party buff in the game that has virtually a 100% uptime.
      • Doesn't give extra damage, nor attack speed, nor defensive stats that actually allow your party to do pog damage.
      • Probably only saves your party like 15 pots per smoke, which isn't even that meaningful.
    Hands down the worst supportive skill in the game. At this point might as well make it last 3 minutes, remove the invincibility, and give everyone inside smoke 500 avoid instead. At least then you'll actually have a buff that allows your ranged crew to deal constant DPS without interruption for a longer period of time.

    Oh, and shad's legit don't benefit from any other party buffs either. Maybe SE on the final dash of nate, but it's hardly used unless u wanna do some extra damage on Zak or something while tanking its body. But seriously, left Shads benefit from SI down to speed 1 or some shit. Let SE affect all lines of nate.

    Meso Guard : A skill that is holding shadowers back





    Other things off the top of my head:

    • Your cleave damage at CWKPQ is laughable (I'm doing 9.2mil at lvl 17x meanwhile a hero that is 10 lvls under me is hitting 16mil???).
    • Then when you wanna have fun at HT and finally do as much damage as the rest of your crew because of how pog shads are at afk cleaving? Nah, you get slapped onto being SED for the next hour to hour an a half. You don't get dpm bragging rights. You're just a class that will be used and abused like a rag doll. Don't even get me started when you gotta move to heads, even if you're not sed your dpm falls dramatically because of nate's poor damage.
    • Everything about class doesn't make sense. You have the shittiest 1st and 2nd job, then proceed onto a short lived 3rd job that relies on gimmicky skill that scales horribly and is hardly used ever again. When you FINALLY hit 4th job, only then do you find out staff describes shad as a "support class" in one of their balance updates not too long ago when they buffed smokescreen. But ironically, as stated before, shads are not as supportive as other attacking classes that also have more damage.
    • High avoidability and I-frames (high survivability) -- perks that people love to tout about shads -- won't matter a few years from now when you'll have NLs and BMs with 20k clean hp swarming the server like locusts. Only then, hopefully, will shads will receive the very past-overdue rework they deserve.


    Of course, I'm not a pro shad, but this is my opinion about the class.

    Maybe I'm wrong, someone please correct me.
     
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  2. HollyCrap
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    HollyCrap Capt. Latanica

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    12:19 AM
    HollyCrap
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    Just make pickpocket great again, and I'm fine being able to farm well and boss sorta well
     
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  3. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    9:19 PM
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  4. Jafel
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    Jafel Capt. Latanica

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    geospizageospiza your toxicfunny rankings has inspired people to farm them.

    OT: shads who wash to 30k hp and have mesos guard have the most survivability in the game. Even way before that. You have the most avoid, most potential damage sponge. Smokescreen is a bit mediocre at 45 sec out of 300 sec. However, if it would be longer it'd be too OP, if the change is made as you suggest, it makes the skill straight up boring. It's easy to suggest a skill change, it's hard to suggest a good one and you've just proven a very shortsighted view on the class and its supportive ability.

    Shads are all-rounders with insane grinding potential starting in 3rd job and even more so in 4th. Decent bossing damage but insane personal utility with the avoid and survivability.
     
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  5. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    8:19 PM
    Shivering
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    Yo guys this ain’t league of legends with some kind of a fully staffed balance team. We playin a v.062 private server mushroom game with a balance team consisting of 1 volunteer. Expecting things like reworks and skill removals is an XD.
     
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  6. Oradious
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    Oradious Capt. Latanica

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    Weird way to spell PR team
     
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  7. KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    5:19 AM
    KurayamiLove/Nagrom/Amatista
    Buccaneer
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    Halcyon
    Assassinate:
    I do hate how the skill works and if it would be possible to change I would make it like post big bang: first press does the first hits press again do the last hit (not a rush), and the last hit does a lot of damage. I also dislike that you can't crit with this skill unless is the last hit
    If you get the hang of it the damage is decent, it is true that when comes to single-target damage they are the weakest among the attackers (but don't get me wrong the damage still ok). The skill got buffed because before even an archmage could do more damage but well as I said now is ok. Also is pretty neat that you can charge up damage and release it when the boss cancels or reflects, and is not hard to do 4 hits of cap damage this way.
    Seems the reason to hold back Shadower damage is that they are the most resilient job, especially if you wash since they have: 50% damage reduction even on 1/1, at high level you can easily avoid 80% of the incoming damage thanks to shifter and the big avoid stat. Eating sed will be your bread and butter in HT.
    If you want to know an even slower attacker check out Buccaneer, a job that has the slowest attacks in the game but compensates with damage numbers, more bursty on damage rather than less and faster. As a Bucc main, I can say sometimes you use a skill and you see the hit coming cos the skill is so slow and if you got no charge you will fall down, or if you mess up the timing you get lasered by Vergamot.

    Smoke Screen:
    Perhaps it could take a funny buff like more damage when inside it hahah, but as it is is kinda ok, the cooldown and duration were reduced to have more uptime.
    Not all the party skills have 100% uptime and are more used only on specific moments, like Time Leap, Resurrect, and Holy Shield. Skills designed to be saved and used only when necessary, Smoke Screen at times is like that, using the skill to ensure a resurrect and get a res when someone dies on a bad position (Like Zakum's Body), if anything it has a bit more utility since you can ensure your team does uninterrupted damage when a boss is on a magic cancel or in a vulnerable time.

    Meso Guard:
    Shad is super tanky thanks to the avoid they have and on top of it they have this skill that halves any incoming damage, this skill doubles the effective HP of the class as long as it's on. All jobs wash, no exception and is true some jobs do better than others with the washes, Shadower really benefits a lot from this, you may say you only gain 20hp per lv but thanks to guard its like 40 and with HB this becomes even better.
    Just for fun lets see the other melee jobs:
    DK- You MUST wash a DK to get cap hp and even then your HP caps at 16.5k if you want to do damage, a fuck up and you are dead that's the life of a DK. Is a warrior so even with the beholder buff you will not avoid anything unless you are extremely lucky.
    Hero/Paladin- Pretty tanky thanks to Achilles and Power Guard, when comes to physical attacks they do pretty well but they got only one weakness: like any other warrior you got no avoid if you are seduced and you get 1/1 it's over. Also, avoid gives a huge edge on a boss like Pink Bean that loves to spam stuns that's why thieves are pretty good there.
    Buccaneer- This job outside I.Frames (that you don't always spam or have available, so you are still vulnerable at times) you have no defensive skills. KurayamiLove has at lv200 14.5k HP and I did just a bit of washing, she can't PB and needs HB or certain parts of HT can 1 shot me, even with my new Bucc having cap HP (Which is very annoying to achieve and needed a lot of MP washing) and even with that I will never be able to tank HT's Tail, as shad you need 16k hp and is not that hard to get with HB and you can tank the tail if you even get hit. PB touch damage is a bit annoying to take as Bucc, a reverse, and zombify and you can easily screw up and die. I won't say all is bad, the I.Frames makes Bucc decent DPM on PB and some chaotic bosses, but well shadower's avoid is still better in this situation.

    Sorry for the long reply, see ya!!
     
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  8. Pepper
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    Pepper Wolfspider

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    11:19 PM
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    Shad isn't supposed to be a main attacking class. Its a jack of all trades. Smokescreen is a huge utility skill: used for ressing safely, used for allowing low hp users to walk through boss to get MoN, lets the entire party attack with no knockback. They also trade off damage for huge survivability.
     
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  9. KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    Buccaneer
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    Halcyon
    Shadower is what Paladin should have: a tank.
     
  10. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Incoming shad nerfs.
     
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  11. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    Crimsonwood Mountain: Cavern of Pain
    11:19 PM
    PAWGChamp
    Buccaneer
    I think there is some merit here although a bit blown out of proportion. I don't have a shad tho so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    1. For a support class I agree smoke has terrible uptime and benefits mostly those with low avoid/prone to knock back (I guess archers and sairs). If you could somehow code smoke to give a pt buff while on CD, idk maybe like +30-40 avoid, it might have better utility.
    2. Nate DMG is pretty bad for single DPS I agree. It's only really good in niche situations like scar/targ where wc makes charging in ds actually relevant.
    3. Bstep does less cleave DMG than warrior cleaves but doesn't bstep hit 4? I think if you summed the DMG across 4 mobs it might put you slightly under warrior 3-cleaves. I think justified if shads are purported as supports. Just need to change meta to make 4-cleave a thing outside of grinding (and I think it is at HT).
    For a support class, Shads don't provide a lot of support. The lower DMG seems to be in lieu of their really good survivability. If they were to be changed I would nerf their avoid and change smoke to have better uptime.
     
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  12. Holp
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    Holp Master Chronos Retired Staff

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    1:19 PM
    kKayo
    Shadower
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    Assassinate
    Not the best, not the worst. Kinda mediocre I agree but seems to be in an OK place.
    It actually lets us close the gap pretty nicely in terms of damage in bosses with WCancel / Damage reflect since it gives us a chance to charge up.

    Smokescreen
    If you've been in boss runs before you will know how greatly appreciated it is. Yes, it's a luxury skill, but what's wrong with a bit of luxury? :sleep:
    45 seconds of party invincibility every 5 minutes might sound bad, but boss runs don't last 5 minutes.
    If you think about it from a greater perspective.. Say your HT run lasts 1 hour.. that's 9 minutes of invulnerability.
    Technically it gives effective damage and a defensive stat which makes your party invulnerable allowing your party to do it's maximum potential damage. Knockbacks and repositioning affect your damage quite abit.
    Assuming we use your 15 pots per smoke quote, and we use 12 smokes in the aforementioned 1 hour HT run, that's 180 pots saved. Run a second time, 360 pots saved. :sleep:
    It all adds up in the long run.

    Meso Guard
    As someone who minimally washed and reached level 200 with ~7.4k hp with pet hp equips, I am very grateful for this skill as it allowed me to do the 'final' boss, PB.
    It helps us save even more $$ than we already do on pots.

    Shads are a cheapo jack of all trades class. We literally use <200 pots and around ~1m in MG costs in PB whilst most others might use 5m+, what more can you ask for.

    But yes, if you're looking for a class purely for damage.. gubi. :sleep::sleep:
     
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  13. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Wait until the shad mule revolution and you will see that shadowers are truly the class with the most utility.
     
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  14. Skuire
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    Skuire Nightshadow

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    Then watch them get nerfed due to muling. SlimeXD
     
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  15. wolf666
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    wolf666 Timer

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    Shadowers suck because we don't have Shadow Partner despite our name MapleF4
     
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  16. Luy
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    Luy Red Snail

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    how many shads would be needed to spam smoke nonstop 1 after the other and disregard any need for hp or tankiness then ? xP
     
  17. porl
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    porl Mixed Golem

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    Are people really making Shadowers expecting top-tier single target damage?

    Also, Smoke is bad utility? Imagine if self-smoke was buyable in stores & no one picked Shads for smoke, ever.

    How do you complain about meso guard? I'm shocked.
     
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  18. Mirrors
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    Mirrors Game Moderator Staff Member Game Moderator

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    My pov is that not every class needs to be super shredded or do top dpm. I am kinda sad that my damage isn't that top tier, but I do really like my high avoid and meso guard a lot and I think if shads really were as awful as you say then no one would play it (I still see lots of ppl playing it tho).

    All my party members do seen to enjoy smoke when I do it too ^^ And it's been very useful when ressing people as well

    I do think that assassinate is jank af tho, I've dashed into Zak body sometimes and taken some hits. I'm also kinda bummed SE and SI doesn't work on Shads but you can't have everything I guess. I think they're in an alright spot RN.

    Note: speaking as a casual 16X shad, and not as a member of staff.
     
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  19. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    Idk why people consider not needing SI or SE for max damage a downside. Playing on a DK it’s incredibly noticeable when I don’t have both buffs and it’s not that enjoyable lugging around mules all the time. Personally I’d love to not need SI and SE and still do max damage.
     
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  20. aaronis
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    aaronis Slimy

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    i feel like i made this post in the past during the dark days of shadower
     
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