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State of archers

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by TORONTOTOKYO, Jun 8, 2023.

Which is the stronger archer now?

  1. Marksman

    27 vote(s)
    27.0%
  2. Bowmaster

    46 vote(s)
    46.0%
  3. SAME!

    27 vote(s)
    27.0%
  1. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    7:25 PM
    It's been many years since archers got changed. Back then when HT was the endgame, MMs were buffed, with 5 line strafe lines, more damage from snipe and reduced CD. And with new content out, I would dare say MMs are way stronger in most content than BMs now.
    - Snipe doing max damage to highly armoured targets, with extremely high targets to the extent that lesser geared MMs could outdpm higher geared NLs in PB body
    - Easier DR control vs Hurricane
    - Ice bird freezing mobs
    - Ability to cleave straight line targets
    - Viable DPM even with 500 int

    Cons are pretty negligible and mainly QOL
    - MMs cant do right top platform in HT
    - MMs have a harder time pinning in CWK
    - MMs cant do afk-lite gameplay.

    Thoughts?
    upload_2023-6-8_17-14-57.png
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. PaltK
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    PaltK Blue Snail

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    7:25 AM
    DISCLAIMER: I HAVE A MM.

    I think it is fine that MM's are stronger than BM's. A few posts ago people were complaining that afk playstyles were making more mesos than that of non afk playstyles. If you consider that MM's can't do "afk-lite" gameplay, as compared to BM's, wouldn't it be considered fine for MM's to be stronger DPM wise?

    Also if it is true that MM's are stronger than BM's, then that means that the scrolls for crossbow are severely underpriced, with hp thresholds being more accessible due to the upcoming hp challenge system.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Bax
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    Bax Orange Mushroom

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    Marksmen are stronger only if you are timing snipe correctly imo. Most content where only requires you only to “afk” hit like krex and I consider Zak in this one too (throw in CWK cause hamstring op), I find that Bowmaster are far for superior than Marksmen. Depending on which stage I can agree snipe on MM is very good even thought you have high int. Could be a dumb change but perhaps scaling snipe damage per level say:

    level 1: 99k
    Level 15:150k
    Level 30: 199k

    This could be a better help to balance both classes early 4th job?Same can be done for BM but I am not a BM main.
    Don’t judge me in this it’s really only my opinion.
    Ice Arrow is an underrated skill
     
  4. UnknownCode
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    UnknownCode Nightshadow

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    4:25 AM
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    Hurricane - Will no longer continue firing when the window is de-selected.

    eek, yeah.. no it still does that for me.

    My Bowmaster in the trash you go, you're a red flag to bans.
     
  5. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    Theyre really well balanced jobs imo, I wouldnt change anything. You should add the fact MM needs SI on your cons list.

    BMs are independent, so I feel they're so comfortable because of this. I used to do nameless without a pinner, just moving around because of hamstring, and it's muuuch worse with MMs because nameless moves so fast. It was also better to toad with BMs since we wouldnt need to bring SI mule (high pot cost if you bring and maybe you will need to keep changing parties on it if you're doing quad runs with hb and hs, it's really boring). Looks like BMs got some advantages in HT too, and at CWKs as you mentioned.
     
    • Agree Agree x 11
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  6. Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    Versatility on HT parties and side, better dpm with end game gear even comparing against MM on SI, easier time dodging seds on PB because Hurricane can be canceled and strafe + snipe can’t, better at CWKPQ, most independent class on the game. For sure it’s not possible to assume BM < MM. The classes are pretty much balanced
     
    • Agree Agree x 10
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Mirrors
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    Mirrors Game Moderator Staff Member Game Moderator

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    Can you add an option that "I think they're the same"
     
    • Agree Agree x 10
  8. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    mm has fixed damage skill, which helps in earlie game,especially when it has an int base, on the other hand bm doesn't need any buff, it depends on your gameplay
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    BMs in shambles after their champion got banned
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  10. OP
    OP
    TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    7:25 PM
    there are two things that not included in dpm estimations
    1) dmg reduction due to wdef.
    2) dmg interrupts due to bosses hitting the player

    Hurricane lines do get cancelled when player takes damage. Comparatively, strafe/snipe continues to proc as an attack animation when the player takes damage.

    Lets re-create the charts from the above post with dmg reduction due to wdef. assuming HT with 1760 wdef and 100% uptime. The cross-over happens at ~8500 range.
    upload_2023-6-9_4-17-51.png

    Now lets assume a small differential of 1% uptime. say the MM has 71% uptime and the BM has 70% uptime. 1% difference in uptime immediately pushes the cross-over to ~12000 range.
    upload_2023-6-9_4-17-11.png

    This also means that BMs excel at
    1) bosses which do not hit the player much
    2) loads of smokes in the party
    3) needs shifter-lite avoid pots
    .
    TLDR; The plot showed had some unknown figures such as uptime. It then boils down to what content the player is running.

    To add on, here is hows the dpms compare for PB body, with 100% uptime. Note that snipe does not go thru damage reduction from PB.
    upload_2023-6-9_4-23-35.png

    A blast to the past in 2020 when top players already knew "afaik snipe ignores weapon resist/def and pally thunder charge is still affected by weapon resist. i.e. MM will be the strongest class fighting PB".

    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/snipe-the-new-hh.35162/
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    actually, intersection for avg range is around 9k from spoiler but it's well known by bm classes the intersection comes pretty far into endgame. BM is actually better on statues so it evens out with MM advantage on body.
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  12. pharaoh
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    pharaoh Master Chronos

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    BM is superior to MM at every boss damage-wise in all cases end game, at some bosses the disparity is minimal (MM almost catch up to BM) whereas at others it is severe, and this difference is exacerbated by the use of apples/gelts. PB statues >> PB body.

    Other advantages of BM:
    - Hamstring is much, much more useful than blind. Despite popular opinion, blind is essentially useless and often not worth using given DPM loss (with the exception of certain situations like cancels).
    - BMs are completely buff independent.

    That said, this only applies at true end game with a mechanically experienced pilot on the BM especially. Throughout the early and mid game, MM has a significant advantage so overall balance wise they can be considered on par. Some QOL buffs for MMs would go a long way though (e.g. some kind of reliable mechanism to hit HT's mid head from the right side, and a global speed reduction of the pirate boss at CWK to make pinning feasible for an MM without a dedicated SI mule).
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 2
  13. OP
    OP
    TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    7:25 PM
    Ditto-ing your post, it can be seen how we might have differing and same views!
    MM is superior to BM at every boss damage-wise in cases where by the boss tends to interrupt alot end game. While the difference can be exacerbated by the use of apples/gelts, hurricane is highly sensitive to interrupts.
    - Blind is as much useful as hamstring and raises the dpm of certain classes, ironically BM. The usefulness of both are situational and unique.
    - It is agreed that BMs are completely buff independent.

    It is known that these are the few advantages that BM has. QOL buffs for MMs in these aspects will negate BM's advantage, shifting the power balance to MM.
     
  14. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The only travesty is that BMs went from being the best multiclienting class to the worst overnight and hasn’t received any adjustment since.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 2
  15. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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  16. OP
    OP
    TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    sorry, but what's the proof?
     
  17. pharaoh
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    pharaoh Master Chronos

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    1. Blind is useless.
    2. What boss are you talking about that you think MM is better than BM at?
     
  18. OP
    OP
    TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    7:25 PM
    boss tends to interrupt alot
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  19. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I believe bm is still superior to marksman, but requires a very skilled player with perfect gear to show it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
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