Information Summer 2020 Balance Changes [Explained]

Have you gone to HT with your Paladin since the nerfs?

 

I would still rather duo with a Paladin, I don't care that a Hero does it quicker because a Paladin makes it less attention.

And how is explaining the role/effectiveness of cleave lead to me claiming Paladins are okay as they are? I claimed that the Paladins use of Heaven's Hammer isn't the same as warrior cleave and that it was closer to mage cleave.

That's the argument I made, if it seems like it's going in circles that's on you because this is an original point of view.

 

You are one of the game balancers man it's pretty clear you guys DO think Paladins are ok as they are or you wouldn't have pushed the change through.

There's nothing else that needs to be said from my end. There's tonnes of creative and cool solutions that help offset the changes you guys made and I hope you consider them in the future. It just sucks that it might take 3 months before we see them become a reality. Might lose a portion of the Paladin population by then (maybe even myself included).

 

Lol totally remove a facet of someone's gameplay, literally annihilating the signature move of a class

Then being patronizing about it and telling the experienced long term players that it doesnt really matter and their class was never meant to perform that way, even though it did for the past 5 years of the server.

Like stop pretending, you already made a post about this being because HH mules and you guys didnt come up with a better solution.

"The class identity of paladins is single target not cleave" well then took you really bloody long to do anything about it huh? Our identity in this server was forged long ago and if you're gonna nuke it completely then acting surprised about longterm paladin mains being pissed is just hilarious.

"Have you tried HTing with the new patch yet" this is like your boss cutting your budget (or salary) by 75% with nothing else to compensate then asking you not to complain and just to test it out and see the ACTUAL impact of your paycut. Yeah like no shit things are gonna be worse and also you aren't gonna be able to do as much.

"Your new identity is threaten" lol good joke m8

Similarly to meatslam I ain't continuing this because the posts just aren't in good faith and getting more and more toxic (my own included) and yeah your paladin population is gonna suffer when you flat out make the game less fun for them. Threatening an ultimatum to get what you want is lame and childish, I know. But video games are supposed to be fun, and when you remove the reason for many people selecting a class, hope it isn't too surprising.

 

Let's talk about arm aggro fix?
Does that mean, pally and bucc are unable to stand at left side now if the whole HT team want a easier dispel/seduce timer?

Alyosha the hitting targets you mentioned as a Hero in HT is probably happen to paladin as well.

when mid head cancel, pally goes to left head blasting. blast cannot hit left head when it does normal attack. You'll see blast hit the air 3 times. If pally hit left head and want to HH, pally has to jump up the platform and cast HH. If you are not standing at the very right edge of the platform or if right head does normal attack, you usually miss the HH dmg on right head. Also, when you jump to that platform, with haste buff, sometime you fall to the ground. Further more, when you fall to the ground, it is the only time that you can cast threaten during the whole run (threaten have to cast in bishop dispel head area).

When the both heads cancel, pally usually jump down to blast wing or ACB wing+left arm. At this time HH only hit left head+mid head+left arm+wing(if wing still on). It is quite lower dpm when both heads cancel. It just like what you said as a Hero brandish when head cancel.

 

I've never paid attention to the damage mitigation it provides, but if it is really relevant, maybe doubling down on that part of it would be more fitting. The skill says it only lowers the weapon attack of the mobs it targets, which I think means it only applies to touch damage? If so it might be cool to have it lower their magic attack too so that it provides mitigation in all scenarios (though that seems like a coding change not a numbers change). I still think it could use a duration buff too, just as QoL if we are making it an important part of Pally's kit since I've read its really wonky to reapply on some bosses and requires a ton of repositioning.

 

Did someone call for trying things out in-game?

This is a level 197 pally with 12 cape, 17 gloves and perfect claymore. Nise , what do you think?

 

I appreciate you tell me the details on Hero in HT.
But, you said "HH acted like a mage cleave".
I'm thinking that the thing you are saying is HH mule. I agree that how HH mule do HH acted like a mage cleave. But. Hey! Did you see any paladin only stand on the ground casting HH? Nope. That is HH mule. Not paladin attacker. You can try it in realistic rather than on paper.

When you cast HH from top left platform, HH acted like a warrior cleave. It does miss the right head more than half of the time. And you might fall to the the ground if you try to HH right head.

 

The only time you should ever be falling off the left platform is if Wyvern hits you off or if you get mass sed right.
There is a reason why a lot of people preferred keeping their HH mules on top left platform. It was low maintenance with stance as you would have to readjust it once every two failed stances.
Normal attacking Paladins have this luxury as well, whereas DKs and Heroes need to climb rope and adjust onto the ledge every failed stance.

Skar's HT comp shouldn't be taken as standard. They don't even cleave wings/arms with their warriors for the most parts.

 

so threaten is so useless cuz pally can't threaten on top left platform

Btw I saw more HH mule stand on the ground Jump/HH.

 

Go try a paladin attacker so you will find there are way more reasons that you aren't able to stand on top left platform and blast.
It is just like hero/dk getting kb from right platform.

Key words :
Dispel
Rebuff
Holy symbol
Holy shield
Mass sed
Horntail split %
Re-position
Double Cancel
The aggro fix

Also a question :
Do you agree more profits when you are in high-risk situations?

 

As a mid level pally main (who haven't burnt out from ideating and voicing out yet) I do quite like the shorter cast animation idea, with damage buffed back to the 199k. Since the balance team repeatedly mentioned the player base to come up with ideas I really support testing this internally!

Another idea was buffing holy charge, which I personally don't find helpful. As others mentioned most holy weak bosses are also lightning weak. Though if you are seeking ideas why not try this as well?

Big shoutouts to players who contributed constructively to new ideas, or built on top of existing ideas, as well as contributing current dpm figures. Of course also big thanks to the dev team & balance team! If you don't fall into any of these categories, you & your toxicity is not needed here

 

Lmao one of the top tier pallies does less than 7m dpm 45 with the new changes... okay

This means the only reason I'd invite a pally to a run is by their merit as an individual rather than a class. Meaning if I'm suddenly a man down for whatever reason (irl issues for example) and smega "R> single target attacker" and I get both an NL and pally whisper, there's no fucking way I'd take the pally over the NL if they're both strangers due to how big the damage discrepancy is between the two classes.

Balanced.

I'm not asking pallies to be stronger than NL's cause that'd be crazy, but at least lower the damage differential between them because if a top tier pally with almost perfect gear across the board can only do <7m dpm 45 that's easily a 2-3m+ dpm differential compared to other pure single target attackers (i.e. not ur se's and buccs) and it's just sad. Do it by way of buffing holy charge or something if you want Pallies to actually be a decent single target attacker else no one would pick one up if they're a stranger.

 

Yea, as a fellow MM, it would be great if there will be changes in these skills especially the first one.
The description on Snipe says, "Delivers a lethal blow to a monster by aiming for its weak spot." (referred to BBB), but what would be the point if that lethal blow deals 1 dmg on weapon cancels?

I wouldn't mind much about the fact that MM needs to be buffed to have a higher dps or BM being a better than MM vice versa, but it would be nice if MM can be utilised in a different way in bossing other than being another ranged dps.

On the other side, I do worry there will be snipe mules if they allow the 1st point to be changed in the way as described. Hopefully the balanced team will be considerate and be careful about the MM skill change or a buff.

All the best to the staffs and ML team.

 

I’m not Nise but my thoughts are that light mode discord is abysmal

Yes, we also saw and are trying to get more data! Please know that GMs are working hard to ensure the event is going well, so I encourage you to turn your thoughts to the balance team!

Logistically, we are not asking players to wait 3 months for any new updates, but we do ask for some patience while we continue evaluating our options. This thread alone has generated new ideas for balancing that we’d love to consider, so please know that we are reading every single comment and are not indifferent about the changes.

 

Just chiming in to say thank you. I wanted to also let you guys know that even if we don't respond to every post, we read every single one and discuss it extensively. We have the future of pallys at the forefront of our mind and will not forget about you guys!

I know that a nerf is really discouraging, so I wanted to thank those who spent their time respectfully giving their feedback to balance team, especially those who have given alternative solutions moving this class forward. Thank you so much!

PS I'm still wrangling with the event so yes please forward all feedback to any member of the balance team lol

 

With the latest changes to HT, there are a lot of unique party comp changes that HT hosts are going to have to consider.
1) Shad SED is basically a must unless you want to dedicate an attacker to not do any damage. This role can be covered by an HP TL mule too, at a higher cost.
2) Buccs in party or TL mules are going to be fairly common because double mass is nearly impossible to cover with just one will, unless your comp is lvl 190+ with end-game gear.
3) Your bishops are going to die more, and there's a higher chance DP happens during a sed/mass sed.

With all these changes, making party comps is now a bit more complicated than "let's stack all the DPM we can." What happens when you're on left arm, your bishop dies to right arm double mass sed, and your party is now shield-less and will-less for the next double mass sed from left arm? What happens if your BM dies with the bishop? Your NL's DPM is now nerfed, and they aren't as tanky as your warriors. Can your party finish the run? In that situation, I'd want the highest single target damage dealing tank there is. Achilles, Guardian, Power Guard, 30k hp - all contribute to Paladin's ability to survive. Heroes are there too, but they deal less single target damage.

 

For 2 party runs, they can try having both bishops in one party to holy shield the sed mule. Then have 1 bishop party swap for holy symbol and when arm is in mass sed range.