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Terms & Conditions: Detailed Explanations, Precedents, Interpretations

Discussion in 'Guides' started by Nise, Aug 27, 2020.

  1. Kylethegod
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    Kylethegod Red Snail

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    Mar 11, 2019
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    5:57 PM
    KanuxUnchou
    Dark Knight
    190
    Glory

    So, what you are telling me is that you are having people go towards making dex buccs vs not making dex buccs.
    I should be the only person on the server who mules a Str bucc in HT and I die REALLY often.
    Taking the role to SI + TL + Sed in a solo party and being skillful to not die by sed with 17,000hp (as I get hit on every attack and need to time the will/manual potting)

    On a double bishop party. you can assume that my bucc is dead for 4 minutes of every 5minutes to res every 5minutes for SI, in a 6man party I would need to be more focused and try to avoid dying, but it is at a level of dificulty that over 80% of the server cannot do (you guys can go try it out and see)

    the "Ressing multiple times to continue the freeze" can be interpreted many ways and clearly what it just said for me is, if i want to bring my str bucc to SI/TL that it cannot be used as a sed target.

    But also, something as simple as having a DK/Hero as sed target. sed into tail.... wait till tail goes down to res. then gets killed a few more times and waiting for CD on res constantly, 5-9minute waits at a time to strategically time the res that if another person dies thereafter, that there will be res for them.

    Also, using buyers as AFK sed targets also would fall into this category, as their role is to literally die.

    One of the fun parts of playing a game, is the innovation that comes with it. ML used to support trying new things, figuring out new metas, encouraging ppl to stay away from Meta-maps.

    From Nerfing Mannes ->Nerfing CWK drops -> Nerfing Shaolin ->Nerfing Dukus -> Nerfing Ulu 2 -> MC Zak/Scarga/HT Grey area ->
    Changing ToS how many times to make the 1% of players game play better that could effect over 10% of people game play.

    All of these changes are seen to deter hard-working players who spend time to challenge themselves just to give those people who just got to the right levels a hand-out. Time and time again all of the changes are focused on having the high levels seem its not worth to play and to let the new blood just try something new (like 6man HT on full apple with a squad of 160) until they realize the changes just suck.

    By limiting lets say my str bucc/ but even str pallys can also be used in this arguement, you are encouraging luk pallys and dex bucc even more.
    limiting non-meta attempts and just giving ppl the bible to follow, saying "this is how to play the game"

    If this is not your intention, then I'd ask for you guys to re-clarify the statement as that is only directed towards anything that single targetly seds and HT is currently the only 1 that it is for.
     
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  2. LurkinShadow
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    LurkinShadow Mixed Golem

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    12:57 AM
    LurkinShadow, LurkinMenace
    Bowmaster, Shadower
    185
    Winterfell
    What about Corsair's rapid fire? I bet not on same scale as Hurricane but SHOULD be mentioned as well.
    And it seems as 2020 has killed ML as well.
    You're going to doom Bowmasters' class especially in front of just-buffed Marksmen and it's a pity.
    People (like myself) has put hundred of precious hours into making Bowmasters only to lose the appetite to play them with this exact notice.
     
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  3. -ovv
    Online

    -ovv Horntail

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    -ovv
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    Don't let the changes bring you down. Maybe now with your newfound freedom, you can explore the other areas of exciting content like leeching.
     
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  4. LurkinShadow
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    LurkinShadow Mixed Golem

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    12:57 AM
    LurkinShadow, LurkinMenace
    Bowmaster, Shadower
    185
    Winterfell
    I'm 138 atm and have been leeching since lv.1 what are you talking about? Can we not leech in ML? And it's like that only to find out that WHEN I may be able to boss I may be banned for using a mechanic others have been using long before.
    Why not just limit Hurricane spam? just like every attack that has been spammed in the same fixture of your character without moving it. (e.g. BStep+BoT/Nate spam that you'd need to refix your character every 3 minutes or so to prevent your character not using any skills unless you've moved your character?)
    Bowmasters are gonna break their physical designated key where they'd put Hurricane at. :p
     
  5. Tate
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    Tate Capt. Latanica

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    On the one hand, I really applaud the creation of this thread and the intent behind ensuring that people are informed of the behind-the-scenes discussions that come with running a server voluntarily.

    On the other, i do feel that although this has clarified alot, there is still some confusion around the implications that these newfound rules will have, specifically towards boss freeze and multiclienting.

    Personally, I'm all for change as its as inevitable as the seasons. But this doesn't really affect me anyways since i'm nowhere near HT capacity.
     
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  6. LurkinShadow
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    LurkinShadow Mixed Golem

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    Bowmaster, Shadower
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    Rip Bowmasters 2015-2020.
    Can we ask for massive job change? Thanks.
     
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  7. aaronis
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    aaronis Slimy

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    why are you complaining so much about what was obviously not an intended feature lol, like yea still shooting off arrows while being nowhere your keyboard very inteded feature!! I've been holding down my TT key for 10 years at every boss available, it aint that hard to hold down the key to attack xd, sorry u actually gotta press buttons like everyone else in the game xd, and no I don't use the triple TT macro shit if ur wondering
     
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  8. Skuire
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    Skuire Nightshadow

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    3:57 PM
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    TFW CANT AFK HURRICANE BMS DED CLASS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
     
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  9. Blu301
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    Blu301 Pac Pinky

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    aaronisaaronis I'm not sure you can call alt+tab hurricane not an intended feature... It was a thing in GMS, it was allowed here in ML for however many years, and you can't even put hurricane on a macro because it's a continuous skill. Further, alt+tab hurricane has such few abusable use cases. Where can you use it for more than a few seconds aside from like Bigfoot, Nameless with someone who can pin, or CWK if you're attacking the Mage boss? Alt+tab hurricane was not remotely a gamebreaking benefit, it was just a slight convenience in a very few niche scenarios. And without it, Bowmaster multiclient attacking capabilities don't exist and that blows.

    If making alt+tab hurricane bannable is a must I can understand that conceptually despite it being around for a very long time, but I really hope there'll be an alternative that still allows Bowmasters to multiclient attack somehow. Otherwise we're literally the only class that you can't reasonably mulitclient attack with.
     
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  10. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I find it laughable that alt+tab hurricane qualifies under general botting, but in-game macroing 3 ult casts and glitching out to continue attacking does not. The bias towards allowing multiclienting and other game-breaking mechanics in leeching/grinding situations opposed to its bossing counterparts is pretty blatant, especially when the offense results in the same consequences.
     
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  11. LurkinShadow
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    LurkinShadow Mixed Golem

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    My own ass doesn't shine much more than yours and my fingers don't ache much more than yours while spamming skills lol.
    I mained a shadower as well to remind you and I'm very fond of this class which requires to a certain degree NOT being AFK or partially "bot" as much as other jobs and I made 2nd main as BM since this feature was a part of the legit gameplay and is a much needed bosser job.
    My point is if I knew this feature would've been banned when I opened my character I'd def pick diff job (e.g. MM) cus generally with 2 skills in its set this job seems much boring so the above mentioned made this job appealing to me.
    Yes, this might be unjustified whining but imagine that on the same scale they wouldn't let you use a skill/mechanic that you got used to in general as well. (Imagine they banned FJ in HT because idk, maybe ranged parties have the edge over others that need to walk it during cancels.)
     
  12. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    Dec 30, 2019
    5:57 AM
    YUrain
    I/L Wizard
    55
    • Looting in a map that someone else has @mapowner to = IS griefing
    • Looting Monster Book cards in a map that someone else has @mapowner to = IS griefing
    [/QUOTE]

    Does this means that when you clear a patch of mob before you cc and a rare gacha/equip drop, the mapowner can claim that item instead?

    Edit, add on:
    Not that I do this. But asking ppl to check out/buy your arts on the forum in game for meso IS solicitation??? So the buyer most ownself discover the art through forum without any in game reference?
     
  13. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    6:57 AM
    NoraONE
    Corsair
    189
    Sweetdreams
    Alrighty ladies and gents, the night is over and I'm awake. So time to reply to each one of y'all (slowly)~ But first off, I just wanna clarify a few things:
    1. None of this should be new, it's simply explaining how certain rules work and interpretations that have been made by staff in the past
    2. While none of this is new, it won't be applied retroactively for things that weren't made explicitly clear by staff before hand

    1. An agreement between two or more parties, which consists of
      • (A) An offer by one party, and
      • (B) An explicit acceptance by the other (this can be verbal acceptance or acceptance via action)
    2. The promise of something of value (eg. a service, item, or mesos)
    3. A failure to deliver on the originally agreed promise
    4. The deal itself does not have to occur on our platform, as long as the traded goods/service are related to MapleLegends
    Hmmm that is a good point... I was thinking more so about payment-then-service or service-then-payment situations. Aka leeching, instalment payments, or 100% packages. I'll have to go back to the drawing board to make it clearer for this. But for instant trades, I would probably say that until you put it into a trade window to finalize the deal, it isn't obligatory to follow through.

    Fake offers as in the seller claiming the c/o to be higher than it actually is, can just be considered an offer by the seller. Cus at the end of the day you're just trying to arrange an agreement between yourself & seller.

    Fake offers by fake buyers, just to troll you, hmm thats a good question. This probably relates back to needing to put it into a trade window to finalize. Lemme sit on this a bit to figure out the best way to word it ^^

    1. I say vastly because you'd have to run through the whole exp calculations :p like depending on lvl of leecher, lvl of split sellers, and then probably an acceptable margin of maybe like +/-10% (this is NOT set in stone, just giving an example). But if you advertise 1 hour of leech, and then proceed to only give like 30% of the expected EXP, then I'd say that's scamming. I can only give black and white scenarios, since everything else would have to be assessed case-by-case.
    2. If you deliver 21 mil exp in 50 minutes and just stop... that might be a scam. Depending on what you agreed on. If you agreed to sell 1 hour of leech, advertized as expected 21 mil eph, the baseline agreement was still 1 hour for mesos. Failing to fulfil that last 10 minutes, would be going back on your promise. However, is this bannable? Not everything that's against ToS is an insta ban (contrary to what a lot of people might think). For scamming cases (not roll scamming), staff will first and foremost try to restitute/fix the situation. So there will be some mediation involved. For example, I've sat down with buyers/sellers to figure out where there was a miscommunication and try to figure out the perfect middle ground.
    3. Good point actually :D I should clarify this too (we're all learning here, including myself xD) extenuating circumstances are completely within reason. These circumstances can adjust the original agreement. DCs are definitely extenuating circumstances, and the server restarting due to a technical reasons would also be. I'll make changes to the post ^^
    4. Well that's up to you to define pepega before you sell LOL and vet through to make sure the person isn't one.

    So I think the important part here is "Intentional behavior to cause/trigger the freeze". If it randomly bugs out without intending to, that wouldn't be abuse. That is indeed the game just glitching out. But there are some players in party that INTENTIONALLY cause it. Previously while entire parties have been banned, a lot of the new players do end up being unbanned. It is only the principal offenders that stay banned.

    If bug fixing was as easy, then we would just fix it :p

    The shadow star "bug", while we refer to it as a bug, isn't really an exploit. It has nothing to do with tinkering with the client, it's just how the game works. Same thing as SI on mages. It isn't bug exploit or a bannable offense for using it. However, they are labeled bugs, as they are things that will eventually be fixed.

    Bug/exploits are usually things that clearly weren't allowed in the game, like duping an item. Or things that arise (newly) from a patch or some change that was made.

    Hmmm I did clarify this after the first person mentioned it, but perhaps there's still some confusion with it.

    "Intentionally having a dead character hold aggro when there is no available res (as in will NEVER be able to be ressed) for the sake of preventing a certain spell being cast (eg. seduce) = IS prolonged, and therefore boss freeze abuse"

    Since you still do have resurrection up, and just strategically choosing not to res due, it wouldn't be abuse. However, if you don't have any res up, and the only reason the sed mule isn't logging off is to prevent sed... that would be abuse.

    The reason we don't explicitly state anything is in case people come up with a "way around it". It's better to explain the principles behind it :p

    Shadow star issue is mentioned above ^

    Shadow star isn't ToS exploit :p Great question about preferential treatment btw (wow I sound like a teacher...) so if you submit a ban appeal, it isn't just one staff member that reads through it, what happens is that the whole staff team reads through it. If you believe there was preferential treatment towards/against a player. If you mention it in the appeal, other staff members will read through it. What is decided at the end (even if mentioned by a single staff member), is the collective decision of the staff. We try our best to perform checks & balances internally, but best way to bring it to our attention if you do sincerely feel that way is to mention it in a ban appeal ^^
     
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  14. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    NoraONE
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    I mean personal considerations aside, let's look at what paperweight botting is. Paperweight botting = repeatedly pressing one button without actually pressing it yourself. The question is "is alt+tabbing hurricane a way to repeatedly press one button without pressing it down?" the answer is sadly yes.

    So since we accept that, then we the only way to allow hurricane is to make a custom exception for it. In that case, people would argue that so long as they can glitch out the client someway and keep attacking (using a skill that isn't hurricane), it should be allowed too. It becomes a slippery slope. You'd need to find an argument/reason that distinguishes BM hurricane from any other skill/class.

    So far, the argument I've seen is "it should be allowed to make sure BMs can be multi-cliented". But that can similarly apply to all classes. What's to stop someone from somehow glitching out 5 clients with 5 different classes and have them attack all at the same time without ever pressing a button. Other classes need a bit more tinkering to get it done than simply alt+tabbing, but if someone CAN do it, they'd just use the same reason right?

    I'm not entirely sure about how hurricane works (no BM pepehands), is there no auto-stop limit like other classes atm? If there isn't, perhaps this can be looked into, since it does seem like a pretty solid idea.
     
  15. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    That's what has been decided before yes (once again, these aren't things that I've made up, it's just listing down all the things staff decided in the past). Since all the mobs in a map belong to @mapowner, if you kill a mob you're killing the @mapowner's mob. By extension, if the mob drops something it should still be the @mapowner's.

    Might need to clarify in the main post, but it's asking people to check out/buy your art THAT ISN"T on the forums = IS solicitation. Rather than asking people in-game to check out art that is on forums~
     
  16. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    Oddly enough I'm actually not very attached to afk hurricane compared to my fellow BM comrades, but thats probably because I don't do much "afk" content where tab-hurricane is useful. However to comment on the issue, I think the tab-hurricane is actually a result of a lack of inputs rather than the client being tricked into continuously receiving inputs. It seems like once you enter the hurricane animation, you only exit the animation either when you input a button release input(that is you let go of the button) or you get hit. The reason hurricane keeps going on when you tab out is because the game never receives hurricane release input since you've tabbed out. Conventional paperweight botting involves sending inputs continuously by holding a button down, although I don't know if that distinction really matters or not.
     
  17. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    Hm. Killing the monster that's flying in your face, so you can cc, should be a "good" intent. With like 1 cast of aoe spell.
    But I can't loot the items that dropped from that 1 cast.
    Shouldn't the INTENT extend to here as well. Why is it on one, but not the others.
    Most of the mapowner abuse reports should be backed with videos as well. Such intent should be fairly easy to judge.
     
  18. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    As far as I know (second hand knowledge from other BMs), when you're in hurricane autoMP will only fire once, so any sort of alt tab hurricane will stop in like one or two minute unless you have 30k MP, but it otherwise doesn't have a firing limit.

    I mean you can test that kinda stuff out with your corsair. Rapid Fire is basically the same thing.
     
  19. Tate
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    Tate Capt. Latanica

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    You have to remember that in reality not everyone is a streamer or have FRAPS running during every game session + a macro for !time to be able to actual record videos and infringements in action.

    so at the end of the day, Please, please, PLEASE just don't be a dick.
     
  20. michaelxii
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    michaelxii Horny Mushroom

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    As a person whose main attacker is a BM, disallowing alt-tabbed hurricane does not really affect my gameplay. Most BM mains will just be faced with holding down a button versus clicking out of client. I think it is fairly clear to most people that alt-tabbing hurricane is not supposed to happen, although Blu301Blu301 mentioned that this is somewhat GMS-like? However, I fail to see why this suddenly has become a reason to get banned.

    Even though staff does not like alt-tabbed hurricane, I am at a loss to see how this has majorly worsened this game. I have not seen an instance where alt-tabbed hurricane breaks the game enough to necessitate temporarily/permanently banning people. Although it technically falls under paperweight botting, this recent change comes after previous discussion of banning people over Alishar aggro abuse. I know that client/game changes take time, but I do not think banning people will stop this abuse. Is classifying this as paperweight ban, and thus opening up potentially banning people, really worth it? Can't this just resolve itself by fixing the client?
     
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