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Terms & Conditions: Detailed Explanations, Precedents, Interpretations

Discussion in 'Guides' started by Nise, Aug 27, 2020.

  1. Tate
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    Tate Capt. Latanica

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    Unrelated but also related question, how do you even check if that person has alt-tabbed vs is holding down the button? some sort of packet sniffing to see how many inputs per second their client is sending/not sending? :confused:
     
  2. Blu301
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    Blu301 Pac Pinky

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    SelquinSelquin I don't think any Bowmasters are that attached to alt+tab hurricane, like I mentioned there are only several reasonable use cases at best anyways. But it seems off that there's no substitute for multiclient attacking if alt+tab hurricane is gonna be bannable, Bowmaster is the only class that has this problem now.

    I understand why it's classified as paperweight botting, like I can accept that in itself. But there should be another way that Bowmasters are able to still multiclient attack on one device like every other class in the game... It's so clown that I'd be banned for using the alt+tab functionality on one PC, but I could hypothetically open ML on a laptop and then I can attack on 2 characters freely. Pay2win is real
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. michaelxii
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    michaelxii Horny Mushroom

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    You have ten fingers, and you have ten toes. Time to put your laptop on the floor and use your toes.
    OnionMuha
     
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  4. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    IMO the difference between hurricane and paperweight botting is hurricane stops if you get hit. If you have 5 hurricanes and you aren't getting hit by a boss, you're probably aggro abusing it anyways since it doesn't work with puppet. GL with enforcement though :confused:
     
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  5. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Isn't that how the entire server operated prior to this post?

    If the spirit of the law from this clarification/update to ToS is to prevent an unfair advantage, wouldn't macro-chaining multiple mage ultimates also fall under the category of an unfair advantage as well? With how the in-game macro and its buffering mechanics work, you could essentially attack with a single button press for 5 seconds while the client is completely inactive, implying the user can freely use another client in that duration. Not to mention, people with multiple computers could be 'paperweight botting' inconspicuously by resetting their button presses every 20-30 seconds.

    I find the stipulations present in these clarifications that single out hurricane/BMs to be a bit unfair while other classes are free to continue doing effectively the same thing.


    You mean something like this?
     
  6. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    This seems like another case of "the game wasnt designed/balanced around multiclient and rampant muling". It seems like an odd thing to change/enforce, but I do find it a bit hard to sympathize when the bm mains shrug it off and the main (and only) complaints come from multiclienters.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. s0mething
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    s0mething Capt. Latanica

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    There's actually a way to do this. You're not going to get get the same dpm efficiency as you would if you were to alt-tab hurricane. But you can macro 3x strafes and put it on alt, while you alt tab to another character. It's essentially the same as all other classes.
     
  8. Milkydoor
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    Milkydoor Timer

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    Is it really considered scamming to underperform on a prior agreement? Supposing I paid for leech but the leecher is having a bad day, keeps falling off platforms or maybe even dies, compromising EPH, is it the case that I am entitled to a refund if the leecher doesn't want to be reported for scamming?

    Similarly, in a Zhelm service if two attackers die and the run takes an hour instead of 30 minutes, is that scamming? I worry that enforcing particular standards (which are set by the community nonetheless) on people selling services is overly strict and totalitarian.

    As a real world example, it would be like hiring a cleaner or electrician who performs an unsatisfying service - I might be unhappy and demand a refund, but there wouldn't be much grounds to arrest said service person (which is what these punishments generally equate to). It would make more sense to impose in-game fines for malpractice (which opens a whole slew of other problems).

    Although I'm aware selling services is something of a responsibility, I think we are straying very far from the spirit of the game when players are at risk of punishment for...playing suboptimally.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    EPH usually falls within a 5% range and rarely 10% range given no lag. If they advertise a range of exp, it should include the minimum and maximum EPH. A 20-25m range for exp shouldn't average 19m across multiple epm5's. If you sell leech and am having a bad/laggy day you should either compensate with extra time or trade the after-tax pro-rated rates.
     
  10. Tate
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    Tate Capt. Latanica

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    Jesus H. F*ck. People actually play the game this way??
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
    • Like Like x 2
  11. OP
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    Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    [Friday August 28th, 2020 Change Logs]

    Few notable additions after further discussions and clarifications:
    1. List of exceptions added to bugs that are "acknowledged features until we eventually fix the issue"
    2. Hurricane alt+tabbing is NOT considered paperweight botting
    3. Clarifications added about scamming (extenuating circumstances, re-ordering of somethings)

    ^ Hurricane lovers rejoice. Previously we have never explicitly condoned the use of alt+tab hurricane, but after further discussion and a re-interpretation of ToS, it is now explicitly allowed. With that however, it becomes classified as a "bug" and one that will eventually be fixed~

    [General Comments]

    I just want to remind everyone that this post isn't the ToS. It's just the detailed explanation, a forum, and a medium for players to ask the GMs or other players about how certain things work as well as possible changes in interpretation of things. If you have a concern, please do bring it up on the thread ^^ We're here to listen and not one-sidedly impose things. That was the whole intention of the post (if people were bothered enough to read the wordy foreword) xD
     
    • Great Work x 8
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  12. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    Yeah. Probably try not to be a dick both ways.

    I seem people aguring on discord that someone came into their map (i think is nightghost) with mobs flying in their face that they can't cc. So the newcomer aoe once to clear the mob, and just nice a rare gacha dropped. The newcomer looted the gacha and cc-ed. We also had the case in forum where a lv10 warrior got reported by a lv12x bishop for hitting some stump/snail in the bishop's map, then got a stern warning (or is it a ban but overturned).

    Yeah, having the mapowner really doesn't mean you should be a dick, eventhough sometime you can.
     
  13. WatIsDeze
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    WatIsDeze Horny Mushroom

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    I think calling it "playing" is a stretch tbh
     
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  14. Milkydoor
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    Milkydoor Timer

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    You should reimburse the buyer if you underperform, I agree. The point of my post is: do we really consider this a bannable offense, as according to the ToS? I'm worried that kind of mentality can be quite elitist (play the game exactly how we do, as efficiently as we do, or else). Hence my other example with Zhelm services.
     
  15. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I would say yes, it should be bannable to falsely advertise your rates. People often advertise 23-28m eph at skeles when in actuality their EPH is far less. An EPM1 testing x 60 minutes is hyper inflated and does not take into account realistic inefficiencies like rebuffing and looting, and it comes nowhere close to the actual EPM 60 or EPH. If you advertise that your EPH is 23-28m, you should be confident that your average is around 25m eph consistently. Otherwise, you shouldn't be advertising that rate and should adjust it lower to reflect reality.

    It's like saying you are selling a 10-15 atk PAC. If you sell them a 9 attack PAC claiming that it is a 10-15 atk, that would be considered a scam.

    If the buyer was angry enough to report you, the least you should do is reimburse them or give them extra time to meet the minimum expectation of advertised service.
     
  16. Milkydoor
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    Milkydoor Timer

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    The majority of leech sellers do not advertise their rates though. Oradious gave an example where people advertise only a 1h time frame, in which case they are judged according to a standard acceptable rate, and can be punished for scamming if they underperform extremely (30% of the expected EPH was the example of an extreme case given by Nise). Again, this creates a grey area since standard acceptable rates are defined by the most competitive players in the server. I can personally see a leech seller dropping well below 20% of the meta EPH if they loot and their route is poor and they miss cycles.

    In the real world, false advertising (which is arguably a form of marketing, albeit very unethical) meets you with a fine, not jail time (at least in the jurisdictions I'm aware of). Meanwhile, other highly illegal practices in the real world such as monopolisation and price manipulation are completely supported and encouraged in the MapleLegends world. Of course, GMs have to draw the line somewhere, but I can't be the only one who sees banning people who essentially just play badly as a little over-the-top.

    On a related tangent, should players who "falsely advertise" 100% pass rates on their scrolls and mastery books be reported and banned?

    Items are fundamentally different from services in this regard since you cannot lie about an item (besides outright tricking a lesser informed player), and their value is much more well-defined. In the Zakum example, a "standard acceptable" run is 25-40 minutes long. Zhelm buyers rarely ask how long the run will take. Some runs take over an hour, which is well below the standards set by the (competitive) community. Should these players be reportable if they don't issue compensation for their buyers?
     
  17. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Using your real world analogy, the solution here would be to reimburse or refund the product. In Maple, the leecher should reimburse or refund the amount of service not provided. If they refuse to, I would still consider this a scam and a reportable offense.

    Don't advertise your rates unless you're confident that is what you're providing. That should be a black and white situation. If you fuck up, own up to your responsibilities, especially when you have an unsatisfied customer.
     
  18. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    That's why quite a lot of the sellers now don't advertise their rate, only their price per hour.
    Most seller do add-on a bit if they really underperformed (dc/died/keep on dropping down platform).

    Also on the zak hat one. That's why no one promise their run to be of a certain timing. They only do afk or not afk.
    For afk, and the attackers dc/died, the buyer doesn't lose anything. I dont think any buyer will report seller for "scam".
    For non-afk. Both the attacker and buyer should understand the risk that either party might die without ress or dc and the run is screwed, therefore the lower cost.
     
  19. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    If they don't advertise their rates then it's fine if they don't get meta eph. It's more of when they inflate their own eph and ruin the reputation of an entire market. In a trade there's a willing buyer and a willing seller in predefined terms. It's different from monopolisation/manipulation since you still get your product/service at those predetermined rates given a willing buyer/seller.

    As for 100% pass rates, the people insuring against that must deliver as well or it's a scam.
     
  20. Milkydoor
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    And in the real world, failure to reimburse or refund may result in you being fired or net you a fine or law suit, not prison time. However, it seems the common opinion here is that bans are justified. Maybe we consider this to be the only effective tool in the GM punishment book. What we're seeing here though is a highly unregulated economy where we selectively decide to punish certain behaviours, and not others.

    Yeah, not advertising eph is fine, but (if you refer to my other post) you can be liable for punishment even if you don't advertise eph if you underperform excessively. To me, this is a little too strict.

    I would definitely say afk buyers are losing exp per death and their own time if a run is scuffed, certainly not nothing. I can also argue that if buyers are accepting the risk of failure in a Zak run, they can also accept the risk of bad eph when they buy leech. Of course, one is "easier" than the other, but the difference is still arbitrary and decided by us as a community. But I can't imagine saying "my friend got banned the other day because his leech sucked and he deserved it".

    I agree false advertising hurts the market, but I disagree that the impact is worse than monopolisation and price manipulation. There are no predetermined rates. Prices are driven by supply and demand, and these practices upset this balance unnaturally. "Given a willing buyer/seller" is the key phrase - a lot of market manipulation is designed to kill competition by making it unprofitable (or close to unprofitable) for other buyers/sellers.

    To clarify, by 100% rates, I mean false advertising such as "LUCKY SKILLBOOKS 100% PASS RATE". By these rules, we should be punishing these players.
     

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