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Terms & Conditions: Detailed Explanations, Precedents, Interpretations

Discussion in 'Guides' started by Nise, Aug 27, 2020.

  1. -ovv
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    -ovv Zakum

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    Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp. If you advertise a certain amount of exp for leech, you are expected to meet that. A lot of times, buyers won't even check, and they won't even care. But in the situations where they do check and see you did underperform, you should be on the hook for providing that service or reimbursing the amount you did not provide.

    You put the onus on yourself by establishing the terms to the agreement. If you don't follow through, that is considered a scam.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Milkydoor
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    Milkydoor King Slime

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    There's no need to be patronising here, especially since you don't seem to be reading through all of my messages. There are situations that other people are discussing where leech rates are not advertised and yet leech sellers may be liable for punishment if they perform below standard acceptable rates. Such offenses are deemed worthy of a ban, and I am of the opinion that this is potentially overly strict and elitist to punish people for playing suboptimally.

    As a disclaimer, I am aware that staff members are not trigger-happy and endeavour to peacefully resolve such conflicts instead of immediately issuing punishments - which I definitely appreciate.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. -ovv
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    -ovv Zakum

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    Not trying to be patronizing, just trying to understand the transfer of logic from the various situations you presented. In the case that EPH was advertised, the buyer is entitled to the agreed terms.
    In a situation where EPH is not advertised, the buyer is purchasing at their own discretion. If they decide to test EPH prior to the commitment, the EPH should reflect that of what the seller tests for, as that sets the terms of agreement.

    Would you consider it scamming if the buyer tests an EPM 5 and the leecher goes sweatlord mode to perform at 28m EPH, but after they pay the leecher, the leecher decides to slack off and yield only 20m? Personally, I think that is considered false advertising, or rather, false assurance.

    You seem to oppose the idea of getting banned for under-performing, but this isn't the case. Rather, we're advocating for banning people who are knowingly scamming through false assurance.

    This has been a problem in the past with some notorious (now banned) players advertising ULU2 leech at 13m with buyers reporting back with 5-6m EPH. A one-off instance is an accident, but repeated offenses show a trend.
     
  4. s0mething
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    s0mething Capt. Latanica

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    • Funny Funny x 5
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  5. IHateApple
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    IHateApple Horny Mushroom

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    Shouldn't the GM who abuse their power get punished as well? Or more like once you are GM, u can just do whatever you want.
    So if i made a ban appeal about the preferential treatment, and all other staff team agree that one GM did abuse his power towards/against a player, should that gm get remove from staff member immediately and get himself banned/perm ban instead?
     
  6. Milkydoor
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    Milkydoor King Slime

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    So I don't have objections to bans for false assurance, but I did get the implication that underperformance is punishable from the following posts:
    Which led me to feel there is a huge grey area where a leech seller (who did not advertise any rate) could underperform by 15, 20, 25 percent and be liable for punishment. A situation which could be made even murkier if the buyer and seller disagree on what the established rate is (which could even be changing every day due to the meta).

    I do agree with these situations - that false assurance is a form of scamming that ought to be punished. The controversial case I mean to highlight is where the EPH is not advertised nor tested and the deal is at the buyer's discretion. Then, in my opinion it isn't scamming to under-deliver on experience. But the aforementioned conversation between Oradious and Nise indicates (with a black and white example, which is fair enough) that this is punishable. Scummy or perhaps lazy, for sure, but that's where reputation and community standards come into play.

    I'm certainly not interested in protecting malicious behaviour, as in the examples you've given. But my concerns are for those who are just trying to enjoy the game and have to constantly fear the ToS might come and bite them one day. This is highlighted in the boss freezing and aggro abuse cases, and in the hurricane and shadow star bugs. Nobody wants to walk on eggshells and jump through hoops just to play the game.
     
  7. whoblows
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    whoblows Slime

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    I don't fully understand this one. Is there a distinction between pressing a button once to toggle repeated keystrokes and holding down the button to repeat a keystroke(similar to a keyboard)?
     
  8. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    Pretty sure staffs will try to talk with you, like saying "hello", or "are you there?", to determine you're botting or not, before they judify you're botting. This happened on me long ago when i was afk-farming stoppers with my bish mule while I was doing HT with my NL.
    They're not dumbs. They won't ban you easily with light guessing like "hm.... i'm sneaking peeping him and seems he's botting. -swings ban hammer-". at least, it was sure, for many cases i saw (including my case... AHAHA DO YOU HEAR ME KimberlyKimberly )
    means, once they ban someone manually, they already got definite proof for it. (I hope this continues till today. It was sure, at least, till late of 2k17 I've played a lot, they were.). A/B can be glitched, but i've almost never saw manual ban is.

    What matter is simple. just do everything suits with common-sense and conscience. Than you won't need to be afraid.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Mirrors
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    Mirrors Zakum Retired Staff

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    Sorry for the confusion, but yes. If a report was made against a GM who is abusing their power, all the GMs can see the thread, as an internal investigation will be made. We've kicked Staff before for abusing GM powers. If the investigation concludes that they did indeed break the rules that they agreed to when signing up as Staff, they will be punished accordingly.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelegon

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    Monopolization/manipulation isn't a scam though so it doesn't fall under 'general scamming'. While "prices are driven by supply and demand," people also desire to maximize profit. These 'monopolized' products (skillbooks for example) are very inelastic such that a reduction in quantity supplied increases total revenue. It's much less the case now actually since most HT runs aren't as profitable due to competition.

    Let's say someone monopolizes a product, say, overall int 30s. If you buy that scroll at 20m, then you value it as is and it is a fair trade. In this scenario there is a willing buyer and willing seller in clear, predefined terms. IMO false advertising is like throwing a smega that says something like "S> earring dex 30% for 3m trade me fast@@@@@" and replacing it with earring def 30s in trade.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Milkydoor
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    Milkydoor King Slime

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    I didn't say it's a scam, I'm just reflecting that other unsavoury market practices (that are illegal in the real world) also impact the market negatively but are not regulated in MapleLegends. Not necessarily saying they should be, just observing.

    I'm not sure I agree with your examples either. If somebody buys out stock and hikes up prices or a group price fixes at 2x, 3x the cost, then as a consumer I am forced to pay those prices whether I like it or not. And in a such a case, I am impacted negatively. It's a little different from the real world because the vast majority of products can be considered luxuries instead of essentials to a degree, but the fact I buy an overall int 30 for 20m doesn't strictly imply I deem that a fair price, just that my desire outweighs the cost. For a similar example, if MW20 books shoot up to 400m for a long time, leech sellers will buy them regardless because it's a necessary barrier to entry for most leech selling (as far as I understand).

    You could look at the apple/stew/stopper market in a similar way, since these goods are closer to "essentials" in MapleLegends.
     
  12. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelegon

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    In ML the ToS is the law of the land (for the most part since a GM can ban you for any reason they choose).

    And in your example, there is a willing buyer (the monopolists) and a willing seller (whoever sold to the monopolist). If you choose to buy a scroll for 20m it just means you have higher demand. Not everyone has the same demand for that item. That's just how scarcity works.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Milkydoor
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    Milkydoor King Slime

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    I know, and the point of this entire thread is to discuss the ToS and where we think it succeeds and fails. There's no discussion in saying "that's just how it is".

    That was your example. In which case, by pushing a scroll price well above a fair value, you deny access to a large portion of potential buyers. This effect can actually be seen on other servers where new players are completely unable to access late game content because of these gigantic barriers to entry (imagine Gen20 at 1b mesos).

    Like, these things are illegal in the real world. I'm not trying to accuse anybody of anything. This is just well understood phenomena. You also just ignored my examples involving mastery books and apples/stews/stoppers.
     
  14. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelegon

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    Potential sellers though x). A 20m scroll would pay for a lot of pots. The monopolist must buy out everything under a certain price and he's still subject to demand constraints. If you put the scroll up at 19m, either the monopolist will buy it or someone else since it's the cheapest in the market. If nobody values it at 20m, the monopolist will never be able to liquidate. It's really expensive to keep it up long term, trust me.

    While some collusion exists in the market, to address your examples:
    Mastery books: lots of groups run now and prices are actually competitive.
    Stews: There are some sellers but I'm guessing price is limited by apple/heartstoppers
    Stoppers: Try farming these lol.
    Apples: Lots of sellers & people doing APQ.

    Also none of these listed above is considered late game. Late game items are never "necessities".
     
  15. raysinz5
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    raysinz5 Dark Stone Golem

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    I, as an attacker, joined a BPQ party of 4 with all bishops level 120-130, so clearly could not finish the last 2 bosses. The leader didn't say anything and quickly went in. Can this be considered in section 3.4 for griefing?
     
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  16. iPippy
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    iPippy Wolfspider

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    This one sounds fairly straightforward, but I got in a discussion about nameless and would like a confirmation. Would hitting a boss such as nameless/dunas with a strong attack that can KB (so 50k+) and sitting out of range while the rest of the party fights the boss with attacks specifically below the KB value to prevent losing aggro fall under boss freeze abuse? I have heard of some fairly prominent names using such methods lately, and would like to know if I can too? ;)
     
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  17. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    So, if someone says something like
    S>1h skele leech have HS/MU/MW20 23~26m have Taunt!

    but they don't have pet loot except for another character which has Dark Sight and both pet auto loots, that loots everything up whilst not being in the party the leech seller said Meso Up is provided but did they have the meso being looted while in the party? No, so.. does that also count as "scamming" ?

    Is having a sweeper a scam? Having bait someone with a leech saying "Meso Up" is provided but wasn't really provided a scam?

    This is something that I would like to know because Meso Up increases the meso being dropped in the party, but what if the party doesn't loot the meso? No one gets the meso being looted because no one is looting meso thats in the party.
     
  18. -ovv
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    -ovv Zakum

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    You're not entitled to the mesos dropped from leech, just like you're not entitled to the items that drop. The established agreement is for a transfer of exp for mesos. Advertising MU is weird for having a sweeper as that can come across as disingenuous - the buyer gets no benefit from MU. I wouldn't call it a scam, though.

    Would it be a scam to add 4 more under-leveled members to the party to split the looted mesos 6 ways instead of 2? Nope.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    You got MU while you leech exp. he advertised "MU", not "1m+ mesos payback per hour" so it's not scam.

    you may report him for scam if he doesn't provide you MU buff, but he does provide MU.

    I know this is irony but whether use sweeper or not, is completely his freedom. If you dislike it, you can just find another leech seller imo.

    You have right to select leech seller you'd prefer. just same with it, he has right to use sweeper or not.

    At least, he didn't cheated. he does provide every stuffs he advertised.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    I think the advertise to "MU" then doesn't loot, or use a loot mule is definitely false advertising (I wont call this scam).
    You should not expect the any meso split in the first place, but once it is advertised, it should be provided.

    It is like advertising MW20, but they only use it on themselves.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

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