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The HP Buff Item in depth

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Pixel, Jan 27, 2021.

  1. Ashpple
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    Ashpple Red Snail

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    Yes, Yes, Absolutely YES!

    This is actually a perfect solution and something similar to what i had hoped would happen with hp washing.

    The truth is (IMO) Hp washing is NOT a complicated nor 'skill based' game mechanic, it's quite simply a time sink where by unless you can guarantee hb buffs (granted not the hardest thing to make an hb mule) it almost requires atleast a year of LITERALLY not playing the game actively to be viable in the portion of the game you will likely be spending most your time i.e bossing.

    I know its frustrating to old players who have infact invested time, time by the way barely playing the character you want to and this may or may not feel like a kick in the teeth (if it is to be implemented, WHICH I DEFINATELY SHOULD BTW, *WINK* *WINK *HINT* *HINT*).
    but in my experience (Washed chars on other servers including this one though barely) even after all the 'effort' it's not really satisfactory to then realise the main mechanic in this game is the resilience to withstand holding one button for up to an hour at a time.

    What i mean is this game is simplistic and it should be treated as such, i am NOT saying things should be easy at all, but hp washing for me has not been a 'challenge' in itself, rather an obstacle that has prevented me from enjoying the game at its max potential.
    Old school maple Has ALOT going for it and HP washing is just a stain on it's gameplay.

    This idea is a great middle ground i believe since you still have to invest time to reach hp goals, but at least you can fill that time playing the character u desire as often as possible, I've seen people mention making this as part of a daily quest that would be cool, though something more passive is better to me but whatever way we can get these items in game is fine by me.

    Great idea, Keep it up champ *Gold Star*
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    Jan 24, 2019
    4:23 PM
    It is an intricate balance of how much hp to give. A lot of the argument seems to be from the group that already did the washing and want to make sure others have to go through it to make it “fair”.

    I think the goal is to make playing ranged classes from 1-150 viable, emphasizing playing. Players should be able to enjoy their character every step of the way, getting strong to kpq lpq, getting to the next weapon level, kill the next area boss, etc.

    Some of us simply want to play our NL BM the old school way instead of on a rope to 150. However I dont foresee this happening if they limit this hp buff coupon to a low amount as people will still need to wash so they still need to pump int and won’t be able to play their char.

    Yes a lot of people grinded on their character with 100 to 150 base int. But that is should not be the ideal scenario, it is your own time getting wasted for leveling at slower rate just to keep a bad mechanic in the game.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  3. kiln
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    kiln Pink Teddy

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    7:23 PM
    Pepperspray
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    Elite
    As long as the proposed method takes more time and effort than a traditional wash, INT gears will retain most of their value. I think while there's disagreement to whether or not washing should be replaced by an easier method, most can agree that an alternative method of gaining HP that doesn't involve pumping INT/MP for the first 150 levels is *fine* as long as sweaty players can get gains more efficiently through traditional washing.

    Again, I think the most toxic aspect of washing is forcing players to pump INT/MP at early levels when you might not even know you want to play a character all the way to endgame. Allowing players to choose a system that lets them gain HP later doesn't necessarily conflict with the existing washing meta as long as traditional washing remains more efficient.

    I disagree with OP's idea that HP gains should be achievable solely through NX, however. Washers have to put much more effort (leeching, INT gear) than simply voting, so it would be only fair to ask non-washers to put in effort in ways other than just vote NX.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  4. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    You seems to heavily misunderstand what I mean by nullifying efforts.

    It doesn't matter whether you are washed or not. But if you are capable of obtaining 4k HP without washing, those old washed characters must be able to get 4k HP too, and not be penalized simply because they have been washed.

    Imagine you played NL for a good amount of time, worked your ass off creating a really nice lvl 170 NL, and just bought a nice powerful 77wa claw.
    After you bought that claw, the next day, a decision by the staff came and said: "NightLords are not an easy class to grind on early, and requires lots of fundings to be useful at late game. In an effort to help new NightLords, we decided from today onwards, if you created a new nightlords, and hits level 150 within 7 months, we will reward you with a untradable 92wa +7 perf NT claw with 0 slots, absolutely free. Btw, existing players will not be eligible since majority have already hit end-game statuses."

    How would you feel about it? Even if its not a perf 92wa NT claw, but a 77wa dragon sleeves, how would you feel about it?

    Now take it to HP. At least give the same claw to us old players too
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    4:23 PM
    I think the OP is trying to do that by giving it as an option to washed players too. However a lot of people say it should be capped at 1k/2k which means it wouldn’t be enough and people still have to wash, so the result is you still can’t play your char, you just have 150base int instead of 200base int.
     
  6. LurkinShadow
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    LurkinShadow Mixed Golem

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    2:23 AM
    LurkinShadow, LurkinMenace
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    I do not really think this method is viable or gonna be INDEED implemented.
    Too many HP Washing threads and yet moderators kept on referring to older threads or provide the same precise answer just for the sake of not diminishing older players' efforts. (And trust me, already-washed characters made ALOT of it.)
    As hard as it could sound, new players need to cope with this hurdle.
    It makes you appreciate your character more and it's challenging!
    Yeah, one could argue it's not much nostalgic but it is what it is. (GMS had its own alternatives.)
    The Alternative OP has mentioned is too op without penalties as far as I can see it and will just crash the market amongst soooo many areas.
    Before I get flamed, bare in mind NOT all characters require (?) HP washing to the same extent. (Yes, being a ranged attacker topping damage output has its toll.)
    I'm a 162 BM myself and efficiently I've got to 4 INT base, 10k HP and 13k MP clean it just depends on your own will.
    Aside of hunting AP resets during Anniversary Event (I only did daily quests) I didn't bother myself hunting during other events since I'm studying IRL.
    My Bowmaster character exists for a year minus a week or two.
     
  7. kiln
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    kiln Pink Teddy

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    The problem with giving washers and non-washers the same HP is that when you give non-washers enough HP to do bosses comfortably, washers will get too much HP (HP inflation).

    Now, you may argue that giving less HP to someone because they are at a higher HP (washed) is unfair. But as long as this avenue to gain HP is *harder* than traditional washing, I would not say this is unfair - think of it more as an alternative to washing rather than a free bonus to everyone. Both the washed and non-washed players got the HP they wanted, only that the washer got there more easily because they planned ahead.

    Like I've said earlier, I think the problem with HP washing is not the amount of work required, but rather that you have to decide to wash from day 1. If your character doesn't have enough MP, then you won't be very good with end-game content. That's something that's extremely uncomfortable to work with for most players, knowing there is little you can do later to improve your HP and you'll have to re-start your beloved character if you ever wish to participate in PB without going through a stress trip and a HB butler.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  8. kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    4:23 PM
    My main wish item is to be able to play the character and progress with it every step of the way. But if it is resulting to the choices between grinding with 150 int making the damage abysmal or remake the same class after reaching 150. Then neither seems as appealing. I agree it is a hard thing to balance for.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. LurkinShadow
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    LurkinShadow Mixed Golem

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    Trust me I know.
    On the other hand, I totally agree not everyone's willing to stay idle off game and rely on voting alone or wait on events.
    But the alternative scenario of implementing what OP has asked will doom the diversity in this beloved game.
    In present times, you could see bossing squads that actually consist of all 5 jobs.
    If a "solution" to bypass washing was to be implemented- you'd see almost zero melee/cleave attackers being included in runs and weapons for ranged jobs will soar.
    Not to even mention INT/Leech market.
    Current state seems brighter.
     
  10. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    If the amount of effort to obtain those HP buffs is harder than traditional washing, fine. Thats fine due to the amount of effort required in comparision to traditional washing - players can pump INT faster and use AP reset faster to obtain the HP they need, old washers's effort do not get nullified & non-washing characters gets minimum HP requirements

    OP felt that a NL/MM/BM/Sair should have 8.5k HP, at lvl 140, within 7 months (about 1m NX), achieving all of these while not having to use traditional washing.
    Using traditional washing, it takes about 1.4m NX to wash all the MP into HP, and reset these INTs back to main or secondary stats. This will nullify old washer's effort if either 1) not open for all players or 2) price/effort to obtain them are not raised to make it harder to obtain, when compared to traditional washing

    Regarding time to hit minimum HP requirements, I have no comments as of now as I did not thought about this aspect. However efforts must be justifiable, and must not nullify old washers.
     
  11. kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    4:23 PM
    If the issue is everyone will play ranged attackers due to how much damage they do, then maybe balance the jobs a bit. Make it so that the gap between warrior/mages and ranged attackers are not as big. Where level and gear play a role, such as a lvl 160 warrior with average scrolled gear will out dps a lvl 150 NL with average scrolled gear. While a above average gear warrior will out damage an average gear NL, etc.

    Maybe that’ll keep the class diversity going and make it not detrimental for players to like warrior or mage class but simply cannot play it because it is not “viable”? I’m sure there is a solution as there are a ton of mmos and none of them only have 1 viable archetype, just learn from the best and improve.
     
  12. kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    I think maybe focus the effort on playing? Such as if you actively kill 10k mobs then you gain (or eligible to buy) one of these coupons (the 10k here is arbitrary example) then this would: allow players that active play their characters to gain the bonus faster. The characters that wash and leech will have to wait until they play to start gaining. So effort is there?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Probably some value changes in both NX and the daily grindable quest can be done to adjust the effort/time required. If washers are not allowed to participate, then a more troublesome quest, or quest with less reward, combined with expensive HP Buffs are necessary.
     
  14. OP
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    Pixel
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    Pixel Mixed Golem

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    6:23 PM
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    I don't want to put one side against another i'm reading the comments from both sides and this isn't meant to make fun of the one side to be biased
    But old washers get benefits, new players get benefits but
    New players with HP buffers won't top of old washers 10k
    and before someone reaches the theorical 19-20k HP in game by traditional washing with HP buffers it would be the only one with HP overflow

    The only argument against this is that old washers may feel cheated
    But then again that's just life
    Is like an old men saying
    ''Young kids shouldn't use computers to solve their issues, use a damn calculator or pen and paper because we had to put all the effort to get a job so you should too''

    Things have to change, things have to get better and easier
    There's old players who want it to be easier, new players who want to be easier
    Yes some of you did went the hard way and you deserve to be rewarded, but i don't think gatekeeping the game state anymore is the solution.
    Like my analogy before, in life many t hings have gone easier past the struggles of others

    So far the only argument i really have that seems valid is
    1.- The theorical old washer+ HP buffer might have TOO much HP
    but this is only if there's attackers over 12k already, which there may be only a very very small number less than 10 likely, or hopefully 1-2 , that's why a step should be taken now
    2.- There has to be a limit on how much you can use at once
    This is the best argument against me and i respect it cuz yes i wouldn't want someone to buy and use 200 HP buffers on a low level and breeze throguh the game, but to be implemented in a way that those that choose to use their NX or any currency towards this method just don't do it too much too early

    Also i am heavily against putting this through a MASSIVE effort put , while yes players shouldn't get things for free
    I find it funny that one of the most inconvenienced classes have to go around hoops, working their butts off ,

    Dailies in general provide an unhealthy experience in the game, causing burnout, stress, people feel obligated to play every day or they will be at a disadvantage and voting im afraid to say is the least harmful of these dailies
    Yes voting every day is a chore but compared to doing your 100 pumpkin/wrappers , or going to snowman everyday ( i liked the wrapper events but it was basically for a free benefit) you tend to tense up
    You dont wanna skip a day and if you do you already screwed up.

    The cost for this should be , slow, gradual and minimal, not too hard that it just becomes inconvenience because
    putting a big work around only benefits old experienced players

    Do you think is appealing for a player to hear
    Oh you want 1000 HP? well hunt 300 cards (that's basically every monster card from 1-90 if we don't count annoying ones like Jr.Boogie) just for 1000 HP thta doesnt get you near

    Now if we put another painful trial like
    ''Okay make sure to kill 300 monsters every day and i give you a nerfed HP buffer for 10 HP'' that just means that in order to get HP , they have to keep working and stressing over this, because getting more HP to survive not only bosses but monsers is NEEDED, not a privilegue

    Players keep thinking that just wanting to see bosses or fight them is a privilege
    You won that spot in that expedition because of your damage, your friendships , your guild you are there cuz you are you, no matter how much HP every new Bowmaster or NL has if they're just a random you won't add them to your PB raid, so that won't change

    This just lets them actually focus, destroy this dumb Bishop meta
    I also got super mad people saying that INT equips and leeching yourself makes them more worth than players who opt to not do that
    Yes it's effort but you SHOULDN'T need to do that, that's the etire point of this thread, that INT equips, Bishop meta, HP washing, INT into main stat are all deterrents that's why the whole ''HP washing is optional'' is such a meme because

    ''HP washing is optional you have all these equips, rng HP from pet equip and a 2 months of hardcore work ring and you might barely have enough HP for HT but we wont add you we need someone better''

    TLDR; your efforts are appreciated but things have to change regardless, don't be an hp washer boomer
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  15. LurkinShadow
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    LurkinShadow Mixed Golem

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    You can daily GPQ/LPQ for droppable coupons.
    Washing is only a matter of will and mostly there aren't shortcuts exc. Event NX/Double voting events.
    That's why when 2x nx is anounced, ppl are getting so hyped.
     
  16. Oradious
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    Oradious Mr. Anchor

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    F/P Arch Mage, Gunslinger, Buccaneer
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    source: trust me bro
     
  17. OP
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    Pixel
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    Pixel Mixed Golem

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    6:23 PM
    DragonMaid
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    Because im a mod in this game and i know the numbers (i am not and i don't)
    I never said it was a fact i was just speculating

    I assume most players just settle for HT or 10k at most
    so by re-assuming how many peple actually go past 12k
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  18. kiln
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    kiln Pink Teddy

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    Kimmy has already stated that she is not interested in nullifying work done by people that have washed already.

    The toxic part of HP washing is the fact you are forced to choose on day 1. Whether or not to make the game simply easier is going to be a much more opinionated discussion. Should the server be run on 4x instead of 2x exp? Should drop-rates be higher? It's the same kind of discussion. You can't please everyone, and a good server will always be careful about making the game easier because it's always easier to go in one direction than the other.

    Just to clarify: I am also a new player (<1mo of playing) - I'm not looking down from some 16k NL I made 3 years ago. I do come from a much faster server, though (Saga). There, people hit 200 relatively quickly and top players run out of things to do, resulting in the server needing a lot of custom content. A lot of custom content, and still the same grind to get there. One of the reasons I chose this server is precisely because the server is slower, resulting in gameplay that is more true to Maplestory.
     
  19. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Unfortunately if this is what your HP Buff will result in, it will never get implemented.

    If these 300 monsters are in the style of christmas present wrappers, I don't think thats unfair since they are already grinding on monsters that they wanted to grind on, regardless of HP Buff or not. Perhaps u can change the frequency of the quest instead, but effort must still be there.
     
  20. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    7:23 AM
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    Thank for you suggestion that addressed the NX issues, old/new players, amounts of HP and stuffs. It is really one of the better/complete suggestion out there.

    I have spend decent amount of time to on the forum to see posting on HP washing being posted over and over again. Many innovative (and some not) ideas are being raised.
    But yet we are here still pumping INT and hanging your 300 INT int-lord on the rope at skele.
    Personally I am just tired of seeing the same thing in the forum over and over again.
    I have learnt to get over it, I am playing MapleLegends, not MapleStory. So I play it the MapleLegends way.

    My personal thoughts on the HP washing is that, light washing (around 100int) is really fine, it adds more depth to the game and wont use really too much NX anyway.
    Your causal new players just want to be able to do some HT without totally relying on a DK, who knows he might lag at a dispel, who knows he might just DC.

    However, it is game breaking with more and more 360INT intlord and BM that will be washing until 30k HP clean being around. While everyone is saying giving more hp to the causal new players will render warriors (DKs) useless in parties. But guess what is really making those DKs useless in parties? Those 360INT intlords and BMs.

    They are literally the same level of breaking the game as to the "beginner until 4th job bishops" that is recently being addressed. "Beginner until 4th job bishop" is based upon the same idea as hp washing, which is to gain HP via a "feature" in the game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2

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