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The reason why our ToS needs to change

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by fael, Jul 6, 2023.

  1. aussietinask
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    aussietinask Horny Mushroom Retired Staff

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    I like how your comment is actually what Courts are trying to do now in promoting Alternative Dispute Resolution methods (this suggestion being mediation). Unfortunately, there are no trained mediators for ML, and mediation generally only applies to civil cases with two parties against each other, whereas any discussion of the TOS would be more similar to criminal cases in nature with the prosecution (ML staff) against a potentially rule breaking party.

    Staff need discretion, and its a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" when you update ToS. People want to have clarity then complain about rigidity. In games like OSRS, you don't even own your account, which is owned by Jagex for which you are permitted to use. The staff try to keep the thoughts and preferences of the community in mind, but where there's any discretion, there will always be cries of abuse. Until personal bias comes into play, there's really nothing to say. I kinda agree with what -ovv said previously tbh, keep the ToS with super wide discretion, and have more training/closed door inward facing policies for their GMs to handle reports. What's done is done though.

    Also, people should realise that Nise updated the ToS in a form similar to what actual legislation would look like (and in a way that a layman can understand it better). For anyone questioning whether he knows what he is talking about, I can assure you that you know less than him. I also think it's absolutely hilarious that he drafted it that way. Screw lawyers, we all suck :D

    My views are mine alone and do not represent any views of the staff or as any official statement.
     
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  2. OP
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    fael Nightshadow

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    For the people against changes though, they probably see the banned people as extremely trigger happy in regards to harassment offenses. That’s why there’s a disconnect between your experiences playing the game and some of these posts. It’s also why they assume that since you have gotten any bans it means you must play cursing everyone's family around or something strange like that
     
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  3. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    So many I keep forgetting
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    When you're a banned endgame player, anyone below endgame is gonna say "dude you're just a dick, i never got banned lmao"

    When you're a non-banned player below endgame, endgamers are gonna say "dude you've just never been in our stressful shoes"

    If either side could just stop using these things as arguments, we might actually be able to work towards a fitting ToS. (Granted I'm more than likely of the first logical fallacy, I just realised it, leave me alone)
     
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  4. Snork
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    Snork Capt. Latanica

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    WHEN WILL IT STOP
     
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  5. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    I'd rather people use actual examples of what the ToS can/can't do instead of making up these theoretical holier-than-thou strawman arguments.

    I can't speak for others, but I know that I've been in really frustrating experiences in-game, such as when another player intentionally killed me by coming into a map I had @mapowner and rushing a mini boss into one of my characters, or when I ran APQ and had to deal with another player going full AFK while they did other stuff. These are tilting things to deal with that I did not initiate on my own, and I did not retaliate or respond with any toxicity towards them, verbal or otherwise. But what I do want is the ability to vent my frustration to other players and warn them of my bad experiences with these players, something that I believe I should absolutely be allowed to do in private discords. This is something that's important to me, personally, and something I want to make sure isn't a punishable action under the ToS.

    I'm not trying to be toxic, but when other people act disrespectful towards me, I want to be able to talk about it.
     
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  6. Pelinsu
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    Pelinsu Timer

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    I want to see at least one more of those "private discord talks leaked" bans, or do we only have one specific example and everything is based on that?

    Because
    What you explain here is not harrassment and noone would be able to take action according to ToS, unless you and your friends go out of your way to harrass them.
     
  7. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Under the previous ToS wording, before the most recent set of changes, it would have qualified for harassment, which is why there was pushback and why a lot of players are much happier with the most recent set of ToS updates. Previously, any repeated statements about another player, regardless of veracity, that would cause them to have a negative reputation, would have been considered harassment.
     
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  8. Pelinsu
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    Pelinsu Timer

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    That's their repupation in the whole ML community though, no? I honestly don't think a group of people talking shit about someone would be considered punishable, unless, again, you go out of your way and actively talk bad about someone in public domains.
     
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  9. OP
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    fael Nightshadow

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    I agree with you. But let me ask: what would you do if a certain person practiced sexual harassment with a girl through Discord that obviously felt extremely uncomfortable with this, but since it wasn't bannable at the time (2 years ago~), nothing was done?

    1. Would you try to expose this person, showing everyone how disgusting they are? Or would you stay silent and do nothing about it?
    2. Would you think it wrong if someone was bothered by this situation to the point of trying to expel this person from a pink bean run that you organize? Or do you believe that we should swallow this and move on?
     
  10. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    That's a pretty vague line to draw. Say I'm friends with people in all 3 major endgame PB guilds, and I tell this story about being griefed to my friends in all 3. Now all 3 guilds blacklist said player from their PB runs. This player now has a negative reputation amongs some maybe 50-100 people at most; does that mean they have a negative reputation in the whole ML community? How many people before it's considered their reputation in the community is impacted?
     
  11. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    I agree that this is an important situation to consider as well, although one I was hesitant to bring up because it's both a touchy subject, not entirely under the domain of 3.3.3, and the onus of reporting is not necessarily on you or I.

    Regardless, it's a good point that speaking on situations like these were restricted under the previous iteration of the ToS, and not, as some players put it, just endgame players wanting to be toxic.
     
  12. Pelinsu
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    Pelinsu Timer

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    We're circling again, if you're griefed you can take action against that player via the official channels. Everyone taking action against a griefer wouldn't be an offense as well, everyone is accountable for their actions. That's not the point.

    I also still would like to have an answer for this, because I now fel like this whole conversation is being discussed over one guy's ban and if that's the case i won't even want to touch this thread again.
     
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  13. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    I mean, it kinda is the point. Everyone taking action against the griefer under the previous iteration of the ToS was considered harassment, that's why I and some others pushed back, and then the ToS got updated a week ago, and most of us are happy. You're complaining we're circling again because many (not all) of the grievances on this thread have been addressed by staff already, and yet some people are still posting in this thread strawmanning that endgame players just want to be toxic. If you don't want to circle again, then stop making allegations that the only reason there was pushback was because people want to be toxic.
     
  14. OP
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    fael Nightshadow

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    It's not only about one guy's ban. But even if it was about this one guy's ban that you're probably referring to, I would assume this post is extremely relevant because it was indeed very unfair.
    But I created this post to talk about the amount of subjectivity when dealing with bans of this type, and because of the amount of unfair bans that involve offenses like harassment, especially permanent bans, on people who are not toxic. Many of these bans are the result of previous interactions between players that will always exist and the way in which each player will deal with it depends a lot on the personality.
    My point is that if I see for example an elderly person being beaten up in the street, I'll intervene. I can't just turn a blind eye to what's wrong as some people claim is the right thing to do and wait for some justice to fall from the sky, or from staff members on a private server. In my point of view, a person who offends someone he has previously offended should not be sentenced to death, especially when it comes to things involving this little fairy game lmao. What happens is that people practice sexual harassment and then go cry to staff pretending innocence, saying they were offended because someone tried to expel them from a pink bean run lol.
     
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  15. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    One of the biggest issues with this though is that there was very real retaliation to people who tried to take action about said player, and not from Staff. People were kicked from guilds and publicly lambasted over this and friendships were ended because for some reason people like to defend those who are guilty of sexual harassment. This is a community problem moreso than a ToS problem, I think.
     
  16. Pelinsu
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    Pelinsu Timer

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    Maybe you shouldn't read intentions, my question above was something I asked just to understand what's being discussed and for the sake of clarity of the discussion. I have no idea if people are toxic at the endgame or not, however I still might have ideas that I could bring to the table.

    Mind you, I wasn't the one who initiated the conversation about 3.3.3 as well, here you said:
    We're circling back because I see that my opinions on this are different than yours and we can't resolve it. That's exactly why I asked the "one example" question.

    With the recent replies though, I also see that yours and faelfael 's experiences are much different than mine and this is the main cause here. So I'll simply agree to disagree.
     
  17. OP
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    fael Nightshadow

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    It starts to be a Staff/ToS problem when they try to intervene in it. What I tried to explain by bringing this up is that context matters. Bans are not about simply for being toxic as people think it is.
     
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  18. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    When 3 different players made allegations on this (dead, and mostly already resolved) thread in the span of what, 24 hours? I felt like a narrative was developing based on a strawman argument that I wanted to address.
    The point I want to reiterate is that some of the pushback on this thread was for legitimate concerns about both privacy and being able to share negative stories about other players on ML, stories that can and will shape the narrative around players and change the perception of others. These concerns have largely been addressed, and most players were willing to move on and let this thread die. I don't think the updated ToS is perfect, but it's good enough that I don't really have any huge complaints about it at this point.

    I want to specify that I have no issues with the ToS as it stands staying as it is, but I am annoyed with players making allegations that the endgame community's only goal is to be toxic on a dead and already resolved thread. It feels like people are just coming in here to pick fights at this point, which I am more than happy to oblige.
     
  19. Pelinsu
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    Pelinsu Timer

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    I assure you that I'm not the target your assumption should point to. Don't assume I'm trying to pick a fight just because I'm still open to talk about it and have contradicting ideas I'd like to discuss.
     
  20. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    I mean if you have issues with the ToS you should direct it as staff then, not the posters in this thread, as many of their concerns have been addressed already.
     

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