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The reason why our ToS needs to change

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by fael, Jul 6, 2023.

  1. ryanlights
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    ryanlights Windraider

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    Thank you ralphjohnsonralphjohnson for being vulnerable and explaining so thoroughly. This is great insight into why the ToS WAS needing a complete overhaul and it was paramount that it was to be done sooner than later. Great job Staff.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
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  2. Emdottwo
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    Emdottwo Blue Snail

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    That's a very strong statement. If I recall correctly, your last interaction with me was quite hostile on your part, not that I didn't respond in an unfriendly manner, for I did.
    With that said however, since talking about Reporting is now something that's on the table, my report came from a place of feeling offended because of your behaviour.
    So no, it IS about feeling offended.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    I will lock the thread if it becomes people pointing fingers at who harassed who in the past, who is currently harassing who, who is baiting who for a response, etc. Keep it a civil discussion about the suggestion / state of the ToS. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  4. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    The reason I (and possibly others) have not answered the question(s) you posed, is that the question I quoted was obviously a strawman argument.

    There's an ongoing debate which has two sides that both seem equally worth arguing in favor of. Yet, you decided to turn a completely reasonable debate into "do you think that someone who is loved by like 95% of the community deserves to disappear from the map due to some silly conflict with someone or with a small group that eventually had a disagreement in the past?"
    Exaggerating random aspects of this debate to make it better suit your perspective doesn't entice people to reply.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    One thing is clear: staff should not use leaked private Discord messages as grounds for imposing permanent bans, especially when there was no intention of sharing those messages. It can be likened to being recorded inside your own home. This creates a negative atmosphere where you constantly question whether someone is willing to betray your trust within your private groups. Such actions set a precedent that allows individuals who seek to harm you to infiltrate your group with the sole purpose of getting you banned. This raises the question of whether this is beneficial for the game. It's important to note that I'm not referring to private messages between two players, official platforms of MapleLegends, or boss Discords.
     
    • Like Like x 8
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  6. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    My suggestion is actually quite the opposite. There should be no strike system at all, and the punishment should match the severity of the crime. However, players should be given the opportunity to apologize for their actions and reconcile with the offended party so they can show staff understanding of their inappropriate behavior, growth so as to prevent reoccurrences, and willingness to respect/cooperate with authority. This would be a process that elicits better practices of communication and understanding between all parties.

    When someone does something egregious, the strike system only serves as a handicap for staff and becomes a “get out of jail free” card for the player that can warrant even more prolonged bad behavior.

    Leaving things open-ended gives agency to staff as the ultimate judge, but for staff and ToS policy to continue being effective, staff needs to maintain a level of respect from the community by being more communicative and patient with their players. Likewise the players need to be respectful and understanding of staff who are volunteering their free time to host us on this server. This puts the onus on staff to be a good and fair judge but it gives them the ultimate authority.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
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  7. ralphjohnson
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    ralphjohnson King Slime

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    What u said about bait?

    Anyone can make a post on the MapleLegends FORUM expressing their opinion on a subject and you know that everyone in the community can have access, even people who don't like you. The fact that they disagree with your opinion and also express it in the comments is not a case of public accusation my friend. Just freedom of expression in a FORUM where people come out to discuss, if u know what it is.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    It's hard to say, I think the phrase "so long as the behavior causes repercussions to the player(s) either in-game or within the wider MapleLegends community." is a bit nebulous in its interpretation.

    It's difficult to measure how much something affects the community. For instance, let's say for example I repeatedly grief APQs by refusing to participate in every stage by AFKing until the end, where I break boxes, take apples, and leave. Over time, I build up a reputation as a poor group member to run APQ with, and people stop grouping up with me. After a while of me continuing this behavior, someone eventually posts an image macro in a private discord making fun of me for being a poor party member in APQ. If I already had a poor reputation due to my own actions, how do you measure the effect of this meme? Does the meme "contribute to the creation of an unwelcoming or unsafe environment" or did the environment already exist due to my own behavior? Is the meme the cause of this environment, or a symptom of it? If other players warn other APQ runners that I am not a fun group member to have, is this harassment, since it technically contributes to this environment of me not being invited to groups? These are difficult things to judge in an impartial manner, which is why tying such offenses to any form of permanent ban seems too much at risk of false positives.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2023
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  9. Raso
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    Raso Slimy Retired Staff

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    Whats stopping people from doing that now? You shouldnt need ToS or a "get out of jail pass" as a reward for something that should be obvious and adult behaviour...? If people couldnt do this in the past, why would they start doing it now.
     
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  10. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    it's justfied because that's just how tos worked back then and how things were counted. all items should have been judged without bias; it's called the rule of law. the harassment clause in the current tos has already been retroactively applied.

    in reality, only the last line of tos matters anyway
     
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  11. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Sure, there's a line where most people will confidently say "this is problematic behavior" but where does that line exist? In my example, if someone posts 1 meme, is it ok? Two? When does it actually become an issue?
     
  12. soulreload
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    soulreload Horny Mushroom

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    Nise, in my opinion we should increase the period of time between bans, even if there are a lot of "chances", those cant be in a short period of time!! We must give people time to rethink their actions far from the game! If he gets back to the game in 7 days, he probably didnt even change his mindset. Hell, we are all human beings and we dont know what the other people is going through, give them more time!

    Like, if someone gets pissed over something and decides to behave badly, give him 7 days; the second time, a month; the third time 3 months and after that 6 months or a an account ban if you think thats a reasonable penalty for "general harassment".

    Our server has many years! That was the reason that i too suggested to forgive a penalty after like 120 days!
     
  13. Toon
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    I ask myself if staff members wouldn't be included in community harassment against a couple players if they had their private discord chat leaked. i ask myself if any junior guild chat on disc from our server is free from community harassment material
     
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  14. SharpestEdge
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    SharpestEdge Slime

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    In English grammar, this can only mean that they view discriminatory harassment as not very serious because they are using discriminatory harassment as an example of a not very serious topic. If they made a grammar mistake, that's different. But from a grammar perspective, it can't be expressed as them saying it is a serious topic. Reading the earlier context in the post doesn't necessarily shed light either, as the meaning from those passages can imply both sides since any mention of harassment is not considered important enough to deserve a permanent ban according to the poster.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  15. Raso
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    Raso Slimy Retired Staff

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    So what youre saying is that offenders should get a free pass to continue their harassment behaviour for some time solely because they need a transitional period to better behaviour? Thats like someone stabbing someone but you letting them go on for a week because they need time to adjust to not stabbing people?
     
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  16. OP
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    fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    Oh so now you agree with baiting stuff? Great. I agree with that too!
     
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  17. Emdottwo
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    Emdottwo Blue Snail

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    i believe they meant "give" as in "giving out a longer ban sentence". Or in other words, making the punishments harsher by making them last for longer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2023
  18. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Because policies would go from being rigid/black and white to more grey, which is more effective with maintaining a small community.

    Thus far, things have been handled black and white and it’s only regressed our player base.
     
  19. Raso
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    Raso Slimy Retired Staff

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    Pretty sure its not as black as white as you and others might think it has been handled. All cases are handled case-by-case, which can lead to lesser or harsher punishments. And again, if people havent bothered to reconcile with the opposing party in the past, why would they now? People only apologize when they genuinly mean it, or when theres something to gain from it. You seem to be advocating for the latter, as the former is simply not happening.
     
  20. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    "First, im sorry, english is not my mother tongue, i dont know if its me that wrote that wrong or you read wrong, but i meant that discriminatory harassment deserves to get a perma account ban, and not general harassment! Please, dont come in bad faith."

    they already said english is not their first language
     
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