Feedback The State of Dark Knights and Moving Forward

Bucc has party SI because that's how the class was designed. If buffs specifically designed for classes to improve their viability and make them attractive to parties are just given to other classes and worked into their kit, why do those original classes exist? What role/niche do they thrive in? A (not even 100) % crit based on a prerequisite stun that will NEVER work on ANY boss is not even remotely close as SE (crit on % chance on ALL mobs ALWAYS). Our Weapon Attack buff (and now best skill after the Energy Orb buff and Time Leap) and Stance is tied to a 1 minute long buff that has as long of a cooldown as the player lets it, unlike Shads that get to stand as far back as Warriors and got it thrown into their kit. Respectfully, I think your reductive example makes it seem more reductive than it is.

 

Make SI work on mages again.

 

I think the game is balanced

 

Why not give every class 60% extra HP/MP at all times to make them all independent of DK, if DK is so desperate to be independent of everyone else. Increase base base HP/MP by 60% on levelups across the board, replace HB's HP/MP buff with some custom text, maybe just an additional HP/MP boost for themselves, eliminate HP washing entirely as everyone will just be able to be comfortable with the HP Challenge HP + passively gained old HB.

 

Making DKs more independent also increases DK player count thus HB availability. Seems like staff are keen on improving DK gameplay all around to be more meta relevant so that players who opted out of heavy washing can still join on runs without the use of mules. You could go with the wide brush option of expanding availability of HB through other classes or permanently improving everyone's HP, but then you'd run into the issue of the pot economy shifting significantly for every class.

That being said, I think the slow steering of the very large ship that is ML balance to make the challenge system work - and DK/HB as a core requirement of it all -- is being done way too late where the impacts won't really be felt for another 2 years after release.

Personally, I would prefer an extension of the challenge system for level 200 characters that allow players to turn their HP challenged characters into meta-relevant/HB independent characters slowly with replay value. Possibly a series of weekly challenges, maybe guild/social related.

 

But if HB availability is the issue that makes half the cast unviable at all at things that will oneshot them otherwise, then why is the whole endgame tied up on a 2nd job buff? Why can't there be a world where the player count of DK is organic because they're strong and can survive while keeping their sacrificing HP for damage mechanics without also being REQUIRED to keep everyone else alive. Wouldn't it be healthier for the longevity of a server for everyone to be able to pick a character they want to play and then if they're determined enough, bring it to Pink Bean or Von Leon, things they likely didn't experience as a child, rather than hope that the balance team makes one specific class with the survival buff being appealing enough to not be muled? No one is upset that there aren't enough Paladins or NLs or even unpopular classes like Corsairs, but coincidentally there's not enough BM/MMs, Buccs, and DKs, and I think a main cause is that if your class is meant to be supporting, it pays with damage and survivability to compensate, and that drives players away. If DK is meant to be this weird emo fighter to put out big damage and do everything on its own, it shouldn't be a supporting type class. And if it's meant to be the endgame linchpin support warrior that needs to be alive to help everyone else, then it shouldn't be actively killing itself.

 

Dam I think the game is unbalanced

 

achilles should be 99% take 0 damage
1% die

 

I would start playing my paladin immediately. Finally a chance for death.

 

Yea I made a mistake on this part.

I didn't summarize the class in full, I only gave a short list on how overloaded DK kits are getting. They are getting class-definings kit on top of their already existing kits. The example you gave does sound amazing, and that is because the context was not given in full.

SI is bucc's skill, given to DK for some reason.
Comparing stun mastery to SE is just wrong.
I believe pinning ability comes with a cost, a lower dps.
Free weapon attack, stance and reflect damage all comes with a condition. You need to charge the bubble.

Conditions introduce flaws, yet all of these are given to DK without any condition, just press stance and beholder and you get all of them. It is not really about good or bad, nor is it about damage, its just that this feels like big bang patch where every class gets their flaws slowly removed, hence the short list.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Compare relying on SI to relying on healing is wild.

 

stance, extra avoid, and skill range was given to bucc, taking from warriors, thieves, and archers

 

i dont want to be a mean shithead but
-self SI (but only half of its benefit due to attack speed cap, so mostly brought for good of the group)
-attacks that stun (valid, but you cant stun relevant targets aka bosses or their parts, thus rendering the SE part almost useless on stuff except big monsters like gatekeepers that people dont farm)
-premier pinning ability- this one is 100% correct
-great amount of iframes- sure
-free weapon attack- thats good, but also with consumables being as available its double edged sword
-stance- correct
-reflect damage- almost irrelevant, and sometimes even a negative because it puts monsters into knockback and you cant move them with corkscrew

Those things make buccaneer not broken. if DRK is gonna not have any of those issues you might be stepping into dangerous territory balance wise.
But i am happy that you guys made the passive way more interesting, way to go!

 

so what you're saying is shad need buff

 

Anything that makes zerk easier to manage reduces or offsets risk by definition, so I'm not sure what's being said here. Im not necessarily in favor of things like increased HP cap, but if the point is increased HP cap is effectively the same as just raising the 'zerk threshold' to 100%, raising the HP cap comes with the optics of feeling like the player still retains something closer to its original design.

But I've also been of the mindset that the points left to hit are the ability for a dk to get to and maintain a steady state effective HP. Thats why im personally interested in seeing how the heal/dragon blood change impacts play. Perhaps more experienced dks can chime in if they think more is required from a survival standpoint.

Even PB touch is just slightly out of practical zerk range (like, even a bit of defense can bridge the gap), but that's an issue with pb body damage specifically and/or the granularity of potion/healing/skill options not being sufficient to get to steady state. Im away from my sheet, but I think something like a ~37% heal lets the 55% dk take a 1/1 from pb and return to 55% hp? A level that just does not exist easily. That's a different topic altogether though.

 

But your list of class perks for bucc were embellished to make it sound better than it is. If I told a new player that they should play bucc because they're independent of BM/MM because they have self SE, I would be lying to their face. If I told them they have Stance, I would be technically correct, but it's not a buff they can just have at all times, it's tied to bubble, which is particularly annoying in fights like Horntail when your bubble is gone but there's no good options to charge on.

DK doesn't have self +1 speed boost that would be able to stack or be replaced with real SI, they have real +2 SI. I can tell a new player that DK's perks include being the only slow attack speed weapon user that is independent of buccaneer's SI and it would be 100% truth.

 

The whole game isn't tied up on a 2nd job buff - it's just an option of inclusion. People have free will to invest into larger washing projects and be independent, but they also have the option to play through challenge system. There seems to be a misunderstanding that the challenge system is meant to be easier because it is catered to newer players, but it's not. As it is indicated in the name, it's the more challenging route and requires more cooperation of in-game assets. It might sound unintuitive, but more veteran players who've been around for longer invest into stronger gear and heavier washing projects to be afforded either more casual play, whether it cuts down on run time or provides a larger EV - or they build infrastructure to gain access to more efficient content strategies. This is what keeps people working on new projects, and it creates replay value for this server.

The problem with the design of the challenge system has always been HB reliance, and it was most felt because of a waning DK population due to longterm meta irrelevance. Players stopped investing into DKs because they weren't worth gearing up and taking to boss fights. With these changes, they might be worth bringing along and filling up roster spots, and a natural byproduct of this would be allowing more HP challenged players onto the other party spots as well.

The reason I always bring up a challenge system extension is that I think creating replay value for level 200s is a good thing, and the reward could be meta-relevant HP values. I don't think challenge system players should be permanently stuck at whatever HP thresholds set by Balance Team. They should have the option of 'fixing' their class to gain independence.

For a system like this to work, you need a strong, meta relevant DK class to allow for challenge system players to thrive and changes that allow them to thrive even apart of HB reliance. If everyone ends up heavy washing, at least the DK class will still be playable with their placements on the class tier list. This will give you coverage across all different phases as the server adjusts to changes.

 

well, me and my lvl 190+ DK friends are excited for this DK rework! Can't wait to try them!

lots of ppl complaining about DKs huh. well self-SI thing was an important one-off thing because DK needed both SI and SE to reach 30% dpm boost; imagine if NLs needed TWO buffs instead of just SE. Also, in order for DK to be viable in party play where people need HB, they almost never got to see SI because they were stuck with SE+NLs that needed HB. DK needing both SE and SI was purely bad design that shouldn't have been there to begin with.

I think most DK players are actually quite happy with this change, in fact I have not heard a single DK player complain about this rework in game. I also like that there is option to stick to traditional zerk (and scaling dmg above 55% as a nice bonus)

 

The only issue with baking si into dk is that it completely spits in the face of the 1h hero/pally. Of course making one for the att speed alone isn't wise as power creep now lets 2h keep up even without si, but the entire build has long been supported by a handful of small benefits that are slowly but surely being eroded. In the greater picture, si independence at full power is a massive benefit that the server hasn't even fully grasped yet.