Feedback The State of Dark Knights and Moving Forward

People play this game for oldschool, pre-BB, v62 Maple. I think that's fundamentally why we're here and that huge reworks or fundamental mechanical changes to a class are a non-starter. I think people pick their class based on in-game role and class identity and not how it fits into a changing metagame because people don't play a server like this for an active, changing metagame.

Of course, people drop their class because they're unhappy with it. But I think overall it's a non-starter to remake classes because I don't think that people pick ML because they want a modernized version of the game...

Sure, I mean, it clearly has issues in bossing in general.

I don't mind staff members changing some of these truly terrible deadweight skills (e.g. final attack and dragon's blood) but I'd prefer if most of the actually used skills (in this case Berserk) simply got changes in terms of numbers, range, etc. I don't want to learn or engage with whole new class mechanics that don't exist in v62. Period. If I wanted a modernized DK, I'd play a modernized version of Maple (e.g. GMS or an updated pserver). I like how DK plays, I think it has a strong and clear identity, I think that it excels at multiple types of content and I don't want to have a bunch of new mechanics to learn and engage with. Like bro, if you want "DK [to be] on par with pallies and heroes in terms of overall gameplay" then why not just play Pally or Hero? I want to play DK, v62 DK, or something based on v62 DK's identity and core mechanics. Not this weird "balanced for bossing" abomination.

IDK, my experience is that the biggest issue people have with DK is the extremely low DPS and fundamental fragility of playing a melee class that's effectively capped at 15k HP. So just raise DPS and reduce damage taken during Zerk, right?

NOBODY is arguing for 1:1 copy of pre-BB GMS, that's not possible and not desirable. We just tolerate different kinds of change.

I definitely have a different experience from other players (in general) because I've been playing for a long time, I don't engage in bossing much or at all, I play very casually, and I always play some sort of off-meta build. But I don't think my perspective overall is rare, just not well-represented in this discussion.

In the past I was a bit more reserved about how I felt on this stuff, but I don't trust balance team after the most recent patch. I had friends quit over the shitty thief changes. Please just no more of this "balance" dawg, we can't take it!

 

Ill be curious to see if this moves the needle, as Ive still got doubts if they are simply brought to an even field with hero as other posts want to imply (who knows where things actually fall w/o numbers though). DK will still be left wanting to replace a pally with an archer in auf, and be useable but still not ideal in core. They could see a rise in pb: but they already have basically free passes into 30 man squads, and most lower runner squads are not exactly lacking in squad slots such that the role compression of a "hero with hb" is particularly enticing over anything else+hb mule. Unless VL can save us, high level cleave content is pally content, and the rest is defined by single target value. If dk were a single target class it would unironically be better The cleave curse may not be solveable without content updates, but I feel like we've been down this road before...

 

ok, i see where you're coming from and I like your thoughtful response. I'm sure staff will also appreciate you breaking down your ideas like that. I guess all I can say is that you can still exclusively utilize passive zerk, and that PLEASE....have some mercy for us bossing DK players Q.Q We can view passive zerk is for grinding, and activer zerk is for bossing.
Actually, i also have a 19x DK friend that exclusively grinds instead of bossing*, i wonder what her thoughts are....

 

Is it possible to also have self-SI icon?
I feel like self-SI implicitly disappeared or cancelled by some bosses (e.g., Thunder from Musha, DP from papu).
i can only tell if self-SI is still there from skills casting.
sometimes i feel like self-SI last for 20mins as for beholder's duration; sometimes it just last for less than 5mins.

If i read it right, this make DKs more viable in PB and better QoL in D1.

 

I class identify dk as dead, how is there always so many buffs?

 

Dark Kimmy rework.

 

I don't think we disagree much tbh. I initially moved to ML from Royals in part because I liked how ML handled balance. At least back then. But sometimes I feel like a lot of players don't actually like the game, or don't like pre-BB, or something. So many people seem to want a totally "modernized" experience with tons of custom stuff. Meanwhile I'm playing in 800x600 on a CRT monitor.

 

ml balance back then was awful. difference between then and now is the game is a lot more solved, both for casuals and sweaties

 

As a non-DK I don't really have a stake in this, but I always thought the skill of a DK was HP management. An easy implementation would be let them keep berserk if they heal but only apply the bonus damage at a certain low HP threshold. They can just heal right before they take the next hit instead of right after taking a hit. Keeping your HP low until the last second nets the damage, maybe give them a healthgate (reach 1 hp then 0 next hit without heal) that ends berserk in-case of pot fails as to not hard punish every time. I don't know the code limitations but people state another simple option is giving them a cap above 30k HP which is also a pretty good solution. I have a ton of other solutions in mind as well but I still think the closer to vanilla the better, that's why a lot of people play MapleLegends. It usually takes the flaws out of vanilla while keeping a lot of it's strengths and oversights that are at the very least fun or charming quirks. TBF I'm not sure how DKs feel, I typically don't like classes going too custom from vanilla and I'm glad mine don't but I think DK 4th job is one of the worst designed job advancements in the game so who knows, I'm sure they want a buff but idk how much they want to stray from vanilla gameplay.

 

Specifically what I have in mind is not including stuff like FS, not letting people sell AP resets, buffing Paladin beyond what was in vanilla v62, and not including CPQ.

 

We have seen time and time again with Old School Projects be it Runescape, Maplestory, World of Warcraft or whatever that people like the old feel of the game of their childhood. However as players have gotten older, smarter and more interested in pushing the limits of these games many of these services have moved towards iterating upon the original designs in a way to not only rebalance the game but also split into a 'what if' timeline. I think people saying that this is just Post-Big Bang adjacent and being hyperbolic to try to sell their points. At a certain level the players need to have trust in the team to maintain the spirit of the game while also allowing them the room to take chances and toy around with changes to try to create a game where one day every job can feel like they're meaningful contributors to content at a variety of levels.

Using World of Warcraft as an example as it's one that I have a lot of experience with. People were very quick to enjoy the trip back to Vanilla, level up and get to raids, this was the honeymoon period, but then what came next? People realized the classes they enjoyed were in some cases utter crap and many people were forced to either find a group that was willing to exercise a bit of 'charity' towards them and allow the lesser performance to be tolerated because they brought something else.
Shaman and Paladin in WoW Vanilla are great examples. They bring exceptional group buffs (like DK does with Hyper Body) but if they're playing a DPS spec their damage contribution is pathetic. As a player it does not feel good to simply be tolerated in content because you bring a buff that they group highly values. Simply bringing a buff does not provide a boost to player enjoyment, hence why people Mule Characters in Maplestory.
Now World of Warcraft has made some game experiences (which I have not played for full transparency) to introduce new experiences and content as well as to breath some fresh life into the jobs in the game that didn't stand up to an adequate metric of performance outside of their group buffs and that has shown to be very successful to the point they they are continuing to do it.

MapleLegends, in my mind, is trying to do the same. Taking a game we all enjoy, with jobs and skills we have some fond memories of, and trying to mold them into a functional game. v62 Maplestory as we know is a very broken game experience whenever you look at equity of the jobs. The primary reason that it was less of an issue back then was that the endgame content was not as much the focal point and merely a pipe dream to many of us players. But now we're smarter (debatable) and more experienced and the inequity of the past would only serve to perpetuate future problems. Change has to happen whether you like it or not. Not every change may land perfectly onto class flavor or tickle the mechanical enjoyment of players and some of those definitions of flavor may have to shift to reach a proper state. The team is only human and won't get everything right immediately and it's fine to disagree with them as long as its done in a constructive and objective fashion.

I appreciate all the Maplers, even those who may come off a bit strongly because regardless it's typically due to their passion for the game. Let's work together to help the team create a grand future. I for one am excited for the changes and look forward to giving them a shot!

 

The funny thing about this analogy is that people quit Season of Discovery as soon as Anniversary came out. People preferred the vanilla experience (or at least the one much closer to vanilla and more conservative) to the rebalanced experience of SoD. SoD has had less players than Era/Anni after P3. It even led to the devs backtracking and saying that for a "true classic+" they're going to go with a much more conservative approach to balancing. Meanwhile in OSRS, every change is preceded by a poll and the original balance of skills, weapons, and spells is not touched.

 

Can you really say that people joined because they preferred vanilla definitively and not because there was one of the largest in-game streamer events of all time going on on anniversary?

 

we all know what happens to the "im playing this class for nostalgia" dks anyways
they level themselves up to 155 and realize that the class is garbage and has little to no "rIsK = rEwArD" value in the end game and they quit anyway

 

fs fine, paladin fine

but selling ap resets?

 

The part about HP cap is on me, I made a mistake cause I did not read carefully. So I think my statement about DKs having easier time than Heroes with passive zerk is wrong. However, giving self-si to DKs still does not make sense. I don't think the problem with DK is ever with weapon attack speed, but due to how zerk works.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but I meant to say if the new patch for DKs are done. I made this post after Pasta's post about new zerk changes so I thought had meant after changes DK, but seems like I wasn't.

The main point of my post wasn't to say I dislike the change. It might come off as such due to my comparison with Hero which is false as I read the part about hp capping wrong, and also the miscommunication. My main point is to say the this overall changes, especially self-si, are on the levels of big bang patch. Giving self-si to DKs are like giving decent SI(not really big bang, but from the cubing system which I hate with a passion, and also is the full SI not the nerfed version) and brings the question of why can't they just receive SI from buccs like every other class?

 

While I somewhat share your sentiment against handing out "self-x" buffs to classes, I think DK in particular was in a rough spot given their place in the meta.

Sure, in an ideal world, DK would just get SI from a bucc, but DKs typically won't be placed in parties with buccs. They'll instead be placed in a party of ranged attackers because of the need for HB.

Now, sure, you could argue that having SI on your DK isn't 100% necessary, but realistically speaking, what does the class have going for it?

I think viewing this as 'giving them self-SI' sounds worse than if you were to just view it as making DKs less reliant on party buffs they'll rarely (if ever) have access to.

 

Interesting perspective.

However, don't hp challenged buccs currently requires HB as well, especially with the recent changes to bucc? If you give a scenario where range attackers needs HB due to challenge/low washing, I don't think we should exclude hp challenged buccs out of the equation, despite them being easier to wash.

Also, a world where ranged attackers are washed and does not require HB should exist. A world where some ranged attackers are washed and some are challenged such that DKs can still be slotted into a party with buccs should also exist. DKs are free to function as attacker with bucc in party, even if it is not meta. We can talk about DKs spot in the meta if that is the case, but that is another discussion.

 

That's congruent with my point though. The devs made changes, people responded to it and the devs then worked to alter things to be more enjoyed by the playerbase. Season of Discovery was labeled as experimental when it came out and thus was likely to overreach and need to be dialed back or at least dialed in rather than conservative at first and then brought upwards. Thats a big benefit to seasonal style content, it allows you to make bigger waves.
And yeah, Anniversary + Classic releases are often quite big and popular, because people love the notion of 'fresh'. Servers that are untouched however the grand majority of players do not end up staying in those experiences for the long haul because the further you get into the lifespan of a server the more glaring the balance issues become.
If someone logged into Maplestory v62 and only ever did PQs (Dungeons in WoW) then they would not be bogged down by their jobs shortcomings. But once you get into Raids and they begin to become more optimized as the community matures thats when the magic starts to disappear, at least for WoW Players.

I don't plan on playing the Maplestory Classic release but I will be watching it with great interest to see if it follows some of the trend lines of fresh vanilla wow servers IE, being popular but not having staying power.
I do enjoy this line of topic though as I feel that it is beneficial somewhat to the balance team to offer perspectives on different player mindsets in different iterations of what I'll refer to as 'Classic' games.

Haven't played much OSRS personally, I was aware of the vote thing, I was under the impression that the reason that existed in the first place was due to RS3 being so poorly managed and having so many aspects that were hostile towards the player that they did it to regain consumer confidence? Is my understanding of that off?