Feedback Upcoming Night Lord updates and plans

very good question! that's the fun part XD

but jokes aside as we go down the ladder of multi-attacking classes, things become less and less efficient, because if they were more efficient to begin with, then that's what we would be talking about right now instead. And once again, BT is NOT trying to get rid of multi-NL, just less easy

 

but right now it is getting less and less efficient for us to play the game as someone who isnt bothered with dpm and multi attacking. sure I do multi client to you know self SE and all for when i decide to go solo dunas and stuff where muling is pretty much free. but getting nerf from people being min max with their time on a game feel really bad.

But anyways given all of that reverting the shifter changes(post anni numbers will be SWELL but i'll take anything cause im lazy and don't want to be playing something complex. else i would have been playing MapleStory as it is now.)and reducing dmg output to a certain degree/or whatever active shifter thingy damage boost is what would personally motivate me to install the game again.

 

ok but genuinely keep it in, i think it'd be fun to try 8D

 

Building upon this, what are your thoughts about doubling down on NL identity of excelling at attacking in high-chaos situations while simultaneously doubling down on other ranged attackers' identity in free-fire situations?

Instead of completely gutting NL damage, what if we tried combining a shifter revert with a slightly milder based damage nerf (less than 20%) with ability tweaks for other ranged classes such as BM and Sairs who like stand-still freefire scenarios that ramp up their damage the longer they attack uninterrupted by movement or kb, capping out at maybe 10 seconds of ramp? This wouldn't address the current balance significantly as NLs would remain dominant in most "meta" fights like PB and Sairs and BMs would only see gains in less valuable content like Nameless, but it would help define the class strengths more clearly and give more direction in terms of tuning and adding content and boss fights (the part of the game I think most players would rather see changed).

 

The only change I would like to see is increasing their reliance on buffs.

Make their dmg without SE all 1s.

 

I'm sorry your class is getting nerfed, but multi-attacking isn't even the primary reason NL is getting nerfed, though im sure that's a big part of it. I'm sorry but that's the danger of playing the meta class, you're more likely then not to get nerfed. I'm not saying you CHOSE NL because it's meta, but that's simply the reality of playing a meta class.

BT seems to be moving towards the option of shifter either giving dpm or giving avoid, so as someone who dont care about dpm, you can choose to use the avoid option.

 

I don't play any NL and am not familiar with Endgame on here but would like to say. Making a damage buff accessible, usually does not make it optional.

Other note would be to possibly give Flash Jump Knockback resistance frames maybe on the upward momentum of it.

 

Would be easier to give archers and sairs more options to counter such chaotic situations.

Instead of seeing NL strengths as the norm/well designed, years of anti-NL propaganda have led us to believe no class should be as powerful. The result of this is we’re now going through a weird roundabout pathway to balance classes by tearing down NL instead of building other classes up to be as enjoyable. Seems wildly unnecessary and inefficient to me.

Where boat parry or strafe spot dodge mechanic

 

That's also one direction if we don't want to overhaul the way content is designed. I don't have strong opinions on it either way, just wanted to offer alternative directions rather than simply gutting NLs and calling it a day.

 

Yeah ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think nerfing NL for passive shifter is clown move.

People will not notice passive shifter being reverted. People will notice dpm nerf.

This is a ‘horizontal’ balance change that will be widely seen as a nerf.

 

What I wish to see just in general when it comes to balancing and changes is enhancing the current gameplay.

What do NightLords love doing? Jumping and attacking, not flash jumping and attacking as that would be hella annoying to position oneself during most bosses.

I think that to appease the notion of rewarding more active gameplay and combating multi-clienting is as follows:
during the peak of a jump they are rewarded with full damage or damgage bonus and get additional avoidability -> The new Ninja Ambush and this is a passive
20% Avoid - lasts 5 seconds or whatever gained after attacking during jumping- damage related to height

Shadow Shifter 10% or whatever

Just an idea lol.

I know this isn't part of NL's but I wish that
hero's combo was a toggle passive and dispel would drop orb count to 0 (so that it still has the current affect)
But when you use panic/coma - enrage activates a passive (while still keeping its active counterpart) giving whatever damage boost for a short while to mitigate the dpm loss when using panic/coma

In most cases from what I heard and experienced it's not really worth using and you end up brandishing bosses for like an hour... this will help with the player being active that seems to be pushed heavily.

But regardless, its a tough thing to find solutions that keep the integrity of a class. So I wish the balance team and staff good luck!

 

I'm so sorry but I read this and immediately my brain went to this

 

Hi. I'm an old school player and never reached late game in original gms, only reaching close to it now in maplelegends, so my perspective is limited. I'd like to share my thoughts anyways, if that's fine.

My favorite class has always been sin. The identity of a sin/NL to me was always foremost damage and avoidability as you've outlined here. But it wasn't just damage for free, it was the class that is rewarded for being able to pump a lot of mesos into and effectively get the highest return for it (the caveat of course is heavy reliance on SE). That power fantasy was always heavily enticing to me and I assume a lot of others. The weapon type, the movement, and the great meso->damage scaling are all the most FUN elements. I see others say that its one of the harder classes to level too. I'm not 100% sure about that, I haven't played several of the other classes, but from my viewpoint it does seem more difficult to do. WHICH IS FINE! I also really like the idea of a class with a difficult upbringing be more powerful lategame (assuming the world where leeching doesn't exist, ofc, but thats still just maplestory).

As for the avoidability identity of NLs... I mean, yeah, its part of the class. But it REALLY doesn't make up for a damage nerf, and I think most NLs would agree with me. If you want to SHIFT the power around, so that it more cohesively is attached to a sin-like-ability, that's one thing, but you're expressing the desire tune down the class strength. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with there being a strongest DPS class in the game. And it has NOT been demonstrated that they're so much stronger that its a problem.

I would be heartbroken to see the damage fall off in any way. I respect the balance team at making attempts to modernize the game's balance while staying true to the spirit of the game itself, but I feel VERY wary when introducing nerfs to classes. I don't want less reasons to play a particular class. I want more reasons to play other classes. I implore the balance team to consider buffing the feel of other classes that they think NL's need to be brought more in line with, rather than this. I've been absolutely loving indulging myself in Maplestory again, having just started playing this server a couple months ago. I made a sin as my first char, got him to level 55, rolled a chaos scroll from gacha and was so excited to have funding that I rerolled another sin on the same account and went again with my funds. I'm enjoying so much of my time here due to nostalgia, something I know a lot of other people are doing as well. If that's compromised, I really don't see myself continuing to play for much longer, knowing that more changes can severely impact classes I've poured hundreds and thousands of hours into already. You can keep the minor nerfs you've already made to the class, those are more whatever to me, although I think it should all be reverted.

Sorry for rambling.
tl;dr Focus on making other classes more fun to play or better, please. I ask to stay away from nerfing when possible.

 

The biggest problem is how a stat like avoid works in OSMS and unfortunately, NL benefit the most from it. LUK being the main damage stat for thieves and the main avoid scaling skill makes it very comfortable, compared to other classes, to play an NL. Without HP washing it may not be an issue but with 30k NLs running around they have some of the best QoL as well as some of the best damage during ST content. Ranged, high avoid, high attack scaling, single attack class that only requires a single buff (from another class) to do maximum damage, while naturally hitting attack speed cap, having stronger potions and brainless afk gameplay. Sure they suck at cleave, and their gear is expensive, but it’s expensive because they’re a strong and popular class and the players determined the worth of their gear, scrolls and stars. While NLs have been adjusted (nerfed) over the years their QoL has remained relatively unchanged until the shifter nerf. Meanwhile SE and Sairs QoL has been hit several times: cwk puppet/aggro changes, unable to hurricane/rapid fire click off screen being removed, freeze nerf at shaolin, safe spot removal on several maps, avoid changes hitting every class (not just thieves), are just some of the QoL changes over the years off the top of my head.

I know that NL is the most popular class. I know it isn’t surprising that when a class people love gets nerfed they’ll be upset. But I don’t think “years of anti-NL propaganda” painted the picture of NL is the boot that’s oppressing you on this old mushroom game server. NL have always *felt* the best to play in content that players deem important and watching swathes of them kick and scream when a change happened that made it so they needed to pay attention to the game was truly the icing on the cake of the anti-NL train. The only reason Shad was spared the same level of ire was because of how mid they’d been up until recently.

TL;DR: nerfs suck but I feel that staff would rather turn the high end down than push midrange higher. Long term that suppresses power creep, even if it makes playing a class feel slightly worse. And the flat avoid% added by shifter added a significant amount of QoL/Scalability to the top DPM class.

 

Curious, so for the bosses that have no safe way to jump... Is FJ viable within those bosses? that would make the current proposed changes better or worse?

I meant peak from platform and yes that would take into account flash jump as well. As for Auf or floaty and water places I see why this would not work, even if it was just the initial jump off platform not consecutive jumps mid air seems annoying to code

 

That would imply bringing an NL to auf though

 

I've read different opinions: with some i totally agree, some dont... so here it is my point of view as a fresh single client NL

About shadow shifter: getting less knockbacks from bosses means more dps, so even giving a stance instead of dodging would not fix the problem. I do understand the "class identity" argument and that any active or nerfed passive shadow shifter would be a big nerf to all single client users (as i am) but still, its something that should be adress.

As an example, if we are looking at any NL training on monsters we see a frenetic jumping star thrower that uses mainly a single target skill, a not so effective max 6 target skill, drain skill, flash jump here and there (alot of reposition), occasionally shadow web to keep mobs in place (situational) while keeping track of cd's and weaving buffs. End game wise ninja storm included too.

If we are looking at any NL at bosses we see a stand still character spamming single target skill, keeping track of cd's, weaving buffs and reposition on boss knockbacks.

In order to balance the gameplay of the static "nl at the bosses" staff decided to make shadow shifter change: while its a good try it obviously didnt fix the problem, with many players asking for a revert of changes.

Why do we have this 2 complete opposite kind of gameplay then? Because alot of players see NL's only as a boss class, that should level up only with bosses and/or leech. These people usually have a mage to optimize grinding.
While we can agree that NL is not the best class to grind on, we can also agree that it is possible to do so, as i did myself. Without leeching, as first character.

How to balance shifter then?
15% passive sounds good. But...
In order to balance the "stationary NL at bosses" we need to introduce the already existing "not static" gameplay of the class while grinding into the bossing gameplay. Fj changes sounds cool but are not practical (misclicking and jumping into zakum body is not pleasant, i suppose) so heres some idea:

• 5 seconds buff that refresh every time u jump and attack: could be a small amount of damage (jumping attacks lower dps) or a small amount of hp (500 hp), some special effect like adding another avenger star with 30% damage or 15% avoid shadow shifter (but no passive anymore)

• 5 seconds buff that refresh anytime Drain is used: Could be 20% critical damage (not the crit chance, mind that with the passive skill critical damage is 100 so 100%> 120%, considering that using 1 drain is less damage overtime than using 1 triple throw instead plus the jumping attack) or a small amount of hp, some special effect like 1 single triple throw/avenger 100% crit or 30% chance to proc ninja storm/ninja ambush

• 5 seconds buff that refresh anytime Avenger is used: could be some weapon def or special effect to 1 single drain to 100% crit, id say taunt proc change but seems too op (all of these are just example to let you get the concept, not the exact numbers/buffs id like to see)

Long story short, reward NL's to use other attacking skills while bossing like they do while grinding (so class identity is not touched): This will optimize active players gameplay and lower efficiency of multi-NL. Next topic.



"NL's single target skill should be nerfed in % cause apples, dpm etc etc"
Please dont. Its already hard to grind with thriple throw and lowering its damage means even worse grinding: dont put active NL players in the position of being forced to buy leech from players who sell it (and, maybe, those are the same people who asks for TT nerf). Forcing the use of other attacking skills while bossing will lower dpm, paired with low buffs duration (5 sec to refresh) should balance the "stationary NL" gameplay on bosses while untouch or even slightly buff damage versus monsters (that seems fair, since dpm vs bosses will lower).

About the not used skills: ninja ambush/storm can work paired with avenger with the 5 sec buff system (procs on % chance) or any combo like that, maybe touching some numbers to balance as you staff think it fits.