Why HP washing sucks & suggestions

Hi everyone! I go by Clean . I wanted to share my perspective on the new player experience and how HP washing effects it. Sorry if some of this comes off as negative, because on the whole I love this server & the staff.

I originally wrote this as a reply on this thread but it got really long.

My experience as a new player:
I started playing on this server about 2 years ago, made an archer and was just enjoying my time and the nostalgia. I got to about level 40 before I heard anything about HP washing (I had never heard of this back when I played Maplestory). People started asking me why I wasn't washing... so I read up about what this mechanic was and my mind was blown.... you're telling me I need to invest all points in INT, be completely useless and forced to leech my way all the way into 4th job????? Not only that but my current character is un-washable so you have to start again. What an incredibly demotivating thing to learn as a new player . I can't play the class I wanted, instead I have to go and make a mage to leech myself. Plus I have to make a new character and start again. I know level 40 is nothing and takes one day for you pro gamers but seriously, what a bummer for a new player experience when up to that point I was having a blast. After that I stopped playing on the server for a while. I eventually came back and rolled a mage, but for many players they may never come back. I think HP washing in it's current form severely hurts the new player experience when the player first learns about how it works after reaching level 30-50.

Never in my 29 years of life playing MMOs have I experienced a mechanic quite like HP washing, requiring you to completely nerf your character from level 1 to the point of unplayability and leech through until 4th job. This process seems completely antithetical to a 'classic' maple experience. Not only that but the difference in HP pool between a washed and unwashed player is HUGE. This is even still true for HPC to an extent (more on this later)

Why HP washing sucks
*First I want to say I don't think HP washing should be easier, faster, or require less NX. I just think there are ways to make it more enjoyable and a more natural progression for players. Here is what I think the real problems are;

1. The first reason HP washing sucks is it incentivises you to nerf your character to the point you can't kill anything and have to leech. Not being able to kill any monsters on the character you are levelling feels terrible, you basically cannot play the character as they are completely dead weight. The result is forcing leech as the only way to gain EXP, & forcing players to not actively play the actual class they want to from 1st-4th job.

2. The second reason why HP washing is a bad mechanic is because is requires game knowledge that you don't have yet from before you even create your character. If you didn't read a bunch of stuff on this forum before starting to play (who does that?) how are you supposed to know about this mechanic? If you didn't roll 10 int on the dice, you are already messing up. Fundamentally this creates a bad new player experience. Players should not need to be interacting with this mechanic from level 0 while they are just learning the basics. Any good game will allow you to learn what you need to do in order to progress as you play.

3. It creates situations where characters are forever limited to less HP than they could have had. Forcing situations were people need to reroll the same class just to reach their HP goals. IMO It's fundamentally bad design in an MMO to forever limit future potential in such a big way because of a mistake you made in early game.

HP challenges
At this point I hear you asking. But Clean, don't you know about the HP challenges? The staff already created a solution for new players! They address your problems right?
I love the concept of the HP challenges. I think it's a great step in the right direction & it gives me even more hope for this server and its amazing staff.

Having said that, here is why HPC doesn't fix the problem for me; You want me to accept that on my Archer I only ever get 12k hp, and I will never be able to go above that. While its possible for me to have gone up to 30k HP with washing. Washing can give you 2.5x the max HP. It doesn't matter if you only need 12k hp to do all the content. MMO players want to be able to grow the power of their character over time, especially in a game like maple where you can put thousands of hours into a single character. The idea of never being able to go past 40% the max HP that I could have otherwise is simply demotivating, regardless if it affects my ability to do content. The idea alone is enough to not want to play my archer anymore, even if in reality I may never reach the level where it affects me. I think MMO players are always going to think like this and there's no way around it. It just feels really bad.

This is why the HPC system in its current form is not very appealing to me. I don't want to put in all that time on a character that in the end is always going to be limited to 40% the HP.
In my opinion the HPC is a great step but there still needs to be a way to continue to increase the HP further after completing the HP challenge to eventually bring HPC character in line with a washed one. With that, let's move on to my ideas for a solution.


Possible solution
Create a time machine and go back to 2015 and get Kimmy to remove HP washing from the server. ok lets look at some more realistic ideas;

Create an Item in the NX shop, lets call it a 'MP token'
The 'MP token' increases your MAX MP by a small amount.
The amount of MP gained can be increased if the 'MP token' is used while equipping INT gear, but base INT does not affect it. Thus INT gear is still useful, but loading up on base INT is no longer required.
The player can then choose to use AP reset to lower their MP and add HP in the traditional style of stale HP washing. (HPC players would need to be allowed to invest one single point in HP/MP to stale wash)

The 'MP token' could only be used after completing some part of the HP challenge quest line, or maybe a level requirement like 100+.

Balance the NX cost of 'MP token' such that it makes up for the amount of NX you would have had to spend on those extra AP resets. The aim is that it still requires a similar NX cost to wash a ranged class to 30k as it does to wash a ranged class to 30k now. Keeping in mind, with this system the more INT equips you have, the less total NX it will end up costing to wash your character, because each 'MP token' would give you more MP.
Staff can balance the exact numbers for;
- the NX cost of 'MP token'
- the base MP gained by MP token (*maybe the average amount of MP that a typical wash character would get from their base int, haven’t done the math)
- formula for how much equipped INT increases the MP gained when using the MP token.
The intention would be to balance these numbers so that INT gear maintains similar valuable for washing and NX cost remains similar to original washing. I’m not asking for a short cut.

Disconnect the HP washing process from levelling by removing INT from the MP gain formula on level up*. The fact that HP washing revolves around the levelling up process creates this issue of requiring players to interact with it from level 0. Which is a huge issue for the new player experience (I would consider up to level 50 on their first character as the new player experience). HP washing is something that you do for end game bossing, as a result it should be something that you can work on after level 100, just like the HP challenges.
Disentangling HP washing from levelling by replacing it with the 'MP token' would also get rid of the awful situation where a character is doomed to be limited to a certain HP. Let players progressively work on their max HP goals and not be doomed.

The effect of INT increasing your max MP on level up is what ties HP washing to levelling up. This is what forces us to go all INT and no main stat, making our character virtually unplayable. This needs to be addressed. INT should not have any effect on MP on level up.

Remove INT from the MP gain on level up formula and make the 'MP token' the only way to further increase your MP (and therefore HP) besides the HP challenge quests.
(The formula for MP gains on Mage would need to be adjusted so they still gain more MP during their levelling journey than other classes)

*To prevent people using this to go 30k/30k you might need to limit the purchase of 'MP tokens' to a limited number per character. Maybe 200 total...
*Otherwise Heavily diminishing MP returns (or a cap) may have to be implemented after a certain MP is reached to prevent easily going to 30k/30k
Likewise for Mage, at a certain HP they should also have diminishing returns (or a cap) on their stale HP wash to prevent 30k/30k easily. Still thinking about this part.

Conclusion
This system would allow players to incorporate both the HP challenges and HP washing systems in their character progression. Giving players the near-term goal of completing the HPC, & long-term goal of washing to 30k, while still allowing them to play the character they want to while working towards that goal. Leaving nobody waiting 2yrs before they start playing their desired class, or doomed to have to reroll because they can never reach their HP goal.

I believe these changes would address major issues with the new player experience, and the worst aspects HP washing. While respecting the existing players who put in huge effort to wash their characters (new players would still require same or slightly more NX and time investment to reach 30k) as well as preserving the INT equips market, and the voting meta.

Curious to hear other people thoughts & if there are any major failures or unintended consequences in this system that I have not considered. I am a casual player so this is all theory-crafting for me.

I may never even reach the level where any of this even affects me, but with these changes implemented I could go and play my archer, look forward to the HP challenges and have HP washing as a long term goal. Say hello if you see me in game mostly playing my Page CleanCut my Priest CleanMage at the moment.

Edit: After further reflection, I think my suggestion to remove INT from the MP gain on level up formula is an overstep. The original washing methods should be left in place for people who want to wash that way clearly, but I think there should be a way for HPC players to progress towards 30k slowly to allow a natural gameplay progression from casual player to hardcore bosser without forcing the player to choose to restart their character at some point.
Whether the solution be a system like the 'MP token' or another repeatable challenge after lvl 180. The reason I tried to think of a solution like the 'MP token' is to protect the INT market and voting meta. Whatever the solution, it should respect the existing players time & efforts.

 

I understand what you mean and this thought definitely occurred to me as well. However, imagine how unfair this is to all the players who have already washed characters to 30k. That's why I think this solution is a no-go.

 

Frankly I don't think there could be any acceptable compensation for this, as least I can't imagine it.

I agree washing was a part of the game in old school. With my solution I tried to keep the core of HP washing intact (the process of creating more MP with INT equips and then converting that MP into HP with AP resets). I do think there is a sort of charm in these janky old school mechanics. However I think washing in its current form has too many negative impacts on the new player experience that I go over in the 'Why HP washing sucks' section, that should be addressed to make the experience more enjoyable.

 

I agree 100%

Yes that's what I'm proposing, after lvl 100 or HP challenge quest you can buy the 'MP token' from the NX shop and use it to create mana (+bonus from int equips) to replace the way currently you make the extra mana from levelling with INT. Players can then then convert the MP to HP using stale washing.

I think this part needs some more thought:

I'm not sure where you would cap things. Curious to hear what others think.

 

What I mean is, if you disconnect the MP gain from INT on levelling up and replace it with 'MP token' then you are changing something that was limited to 200 times be unlimited. Creating issues where people could continue to use 'MP token' to eventually get 30k/30k

I think you're right, you could fix it by limiting the purchase of 'MP tokens' to a limited number per character. Maybe 200 total, each one representing a level. When you complete the first HP challenge tier you unlock the first 100 MP tokens, and each tier after you unlock more. Thereby replacing the MP gains through levelling up with the MP token. Although these numbers might need to change depending on how all the other numbers are balanced.

Edit: although this could then lead back to the problem of people running out of MP tokens and not being able to hit their HP/MP goal... You would have to wait until you had enough INT equips before you start using your 'MP tokens'. At least you could still play your class while working toward an INT set. And it would mean some players will end up with more MP than others, but maybe this isn't a bad compromise.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read it. I’m ok with the HPC giving the amount it does, I just think there should be a way to slowly work your way toward 30k after HPC.
The same way washing is now a long term challenge for players and not ‘required’ for clearing content. It would just be cool if you could work towards that goal while being able to play the character.
My main reason for wanting 30k is probably the same for anyone who wants to get 30k, because you can, the same reason I want to get to level 200. Because it’s the top. Even if you don’t need to be lvl200 to do any content. I think that is just the core of any MMO, people want to make their character stronger. Imagine you capped characters at lvl180 if you do the HP challenges, you don’t need to be any higher than lvl180 to clear any content so what’s the problem? Idk it just sucks, even if I never reach lvl 180 I want to know my character can go to level 200 if I put in the time and not have to re-roll.

The same thing happens with every MMO, why did I farm every piece for pre raid BiS in World of Warcraft and collect every single world buff? It wasn’t required to clear the content, but it’s the most powerful you can be so that’s what people want to do.

Same thing with washing to 30k.
Also basic things like more safety in bosses, more pot efficiency of course.

 

Not sure I understand what you mean. The system I'm proposing is not supposed to make anything faster or more affordable, you would still need a similar amount of time and NX and INT gear. I'm just trying to suggest ways to make washing a less punishing experience for new players.

Yes that's kind of my point, even though the HP challenges look really cool and I would actually like to experience the quests. I'm just not interested in putting hundreds of hours into a character that will be forever limited to max 40% HP of what they could have. So I'm not playing my xbowman and I'm just voting on that account and waiting until I have enough NX. I think it's a shame that if players want to work towards their 30k attacker they can't play the class they want to, unless they want to reroll and level the same class again. And the entire process of not being able to actively attack and level on the class from 1st - 4th job is just lame.