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Making Paladins better at element neutral targets

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Snake, Jul 3, 2017.

  1. Snake
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    Snake Brown Teddy

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    12:23 AM
    So I was checking out the skill changes on this server and overall I think there's some great additions.

    Crunching the numbers it's easy to see that 175% fire should make Paladins absolute power-houses against fire weak targets (least on paper, haven't actually seen one).

    However there's one glaring issue about the class in my opinion; Bossing. While many of the smaller bosses in game (Anego, Bigfoot, Crow etc) have elemental weaknesses the main bosses in game (Zakum and Horntail) does not. This reflects in Amount of Heroes and Dark Knights vs. Paladins

    Now on 175% fire Paladin should still actually beat Hero dps on single target neutrals by a small marigin (1521% a sec vs 1431% a sec with ST). I'd still say Hero is a lot more useful as brandish is a 3 target skill and can therefore do some pretty nutty dps on on Zakum arms and at HT as long as there's more than 1 target to hit. You could slot in Paladin as a Single target attacker for your run but their dps doesn't quite hang with the 1 target specialists that is NL and Corsair.

    Therefore I suggest the following change to the class:
    Make fire element boost damage by 200% BUT nerf the damage multiplier on fire weak targets from 1.5x to 1.1x. This would make the class a lot more versatile and give them a distinct role as single target attacker for bosses. It wouldn't make thunder and holy element obsolete, as those elements would still be preferred on targets that are weak to those elements. Ice would be the preferred element for many ice weak mobs, as those are usually strong against fire. This would just make fire the go-to element for anything neutral (It should already be anyway) or fire-weak. Now the con would be that Paladin would not be as strong against Fire weak targets but I'd say overall it's a pretty good trade-off.

    Here's how damage would change

    Currently:
    Neutral 175% damage, Fire weak 262.5% damage

    With suggested change:
    Neutral 200% damage, Fire Weak 220% damage

    Also damage cap on blast should probably be raised to something like 299,999. It's pretty easy for a high levelled Paladin to hit 199,999 on elemental weak targets when using apples. Especially when you throw SE into the mix.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    4:23 PM
    Lionheart
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    Paladins have already been giving a significant buff dude. And the skill that helps put them on par with Heros when it comes to bossing is "Blast". But you already know about blast.

    A common pattern is that if you have an easier time grinding, you'll have a tougher time bossing. I think you're just going to have to accept that this is the way it is, because if they keep improving upon paladin, soon that will just be the obvious choice, equal to or better than hero in every way.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
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  3. OP
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    Snake
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    Snake Brown Teddy

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    12:23 AM
    Yes they have recieved a significant buff, making them even better at what they do really well; attacking elemental weak targets. So the issue of being bad at neutral targets still remain, just not as appallingly bad anymore.
    Paladin is in no way shape or form 'on par' with hero at HT or Zakum. They slightly edge them out on single target but get destroyed as soon as multitargets get introduced. Paladin should be compared against a Night Lord instead, who's main attack is also a single target skill. Against Night Lord they also get destroyed on single target (no surprise there). Paladin can however keep up with NL's on Holy weak and Lightning weak and straight out beat them on fire weak.

    What I'm suggesting isn't necessarily a buff as it would also significantly nerf their damage vs. fire weak targets. Bit of a double edged sword but some quality of life and would make the class more attractive.

    Good grinding doesn't necessarily have to exclude being able to boss well. There's already classes in game that do both very well. Also this change would not make them equal/better to hero in every way at all. Heroes would still be in high demand for their excellent cleave damage and overall do a lot more damage in a HT fight. This would just make Paladin be able to do one role well at bosses and be less crippled vs neutral targets.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. Qanu
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    Qanu Stone Golem

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    12:23 AM
    HammerSlam
    White Knight
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    Sounds reasonable since fire weak type are the most common in maple. Dunno if it would be necessary that the damage cap would be raised then, unless you're sure that pallys can hit cap damage quite often and would put pallys more like NLs then heroes.
     
  5. OP
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    Snake
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    Snake Brown Teddy

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    Just an example of how a Paladin could look like at 180. Clearly not your average geared player but just showing it's doable and probably inevitable that you'll hit the cap at 200.

    Helm: 17 Str, 36 dex
    Eye: 5 str, 5 dex
    Face: 10 dex
    Ear: 13 dex
    Necklace: 25 str, 25 dex,
    Top: 25 str, 2 dex
    Bot: 19 dex, 4 str
    Cape: 11 attack
    Shoes: 6 attack
    Gloves: 16 attack
    Sword: 131 attack, 15 str
    Attack: 164
    Gear bonus: 110 dex, 91 str
    Base stats + MW20: 11 dex, 1003 str
    Total: 121 dex, 1094 str
    AP modifier: 51.534

    Clean: 8451
    Apple + echo: 14,149

    Against some elemental weak targets (no defense):
    Maximum theoretical damage with current version of fire element without SE: 222,846
    Maximum theoretical damage with current version of fire element with SE: 274,844
    Maximum theoretical damage with thunder element without SE: 191,011
    Maximum theoretical damage with thunder element with SE: 235,580

    So a lot of damage that could be lost there cause of the simple fact that Blast damage is a single line instead of spread across 2 lines.
     
  6. Number32
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    Number32 Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I dont think you should compare pally's to NL's dpm wise, as Pally's are far far more tanky, and ofr this survivability you give up a little bit of damage. Doesn't seem like an unfair trade to me. If all you care about is damage vs bosses, then just make a NL
     
  7. OP
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    Snake
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    Snake Brown Teddy

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    NL can wash though. A well washed NL is pretty much playing on god mode with the insane avoid.
     
  8. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    3:23 PM
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    Washing kinda makes innate tankiness a moot point, doesn't it? I'd like to see the change that Threaten (Page skill) got in other versions of GMS: it applies a percent instead of a raw number. That would make pallys slightly more useful and stronger by giving them more damage and something somewhat party relevant.
     
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  9. OP
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    Snake
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    Snake Brown Teddy

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    Yeah IMO it does. Besides that's only one thing Paladin got up their sleeve. He fails to mention that NL got 15 min apples, superior mobility, better damage sustainability due to high avoid and not falling off platforms as often. Let's also not forget due to the nature of being melee warriors simply take more damage and therefore needs better tankability.

    Not sure how much, say 20 % defense reduction, would matter as the damage you lose from defense is rather negligible before Big Bang. Unless you make threaten remove a high % of all defense. Good idea either way. MapleF2
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
  10. Qanu
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    Qanu Stone Golem

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    12:23 AM
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    Make threaten lower elemental defence as well?! Should be a must though! That way it also should help mages in parties. MapleF11
     
  11. xNivx
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    xNivx Headless Horseman

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    4:23 PM
    xNivx
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    200% god damn you're thirsty for damage
     
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  12. OP
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    Snake
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    Snake Brown Teddy

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    Yeah god forbid not only Hero and DrK being the useful warriors at Bosses. Also I'm not playing a Paladin.
     
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  13. Hyoon
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    Hyoon Zakum Retired Staff

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    6:23 PM
    Lets give shadowers, shadow partner.
    Heck they have it in their name.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  14. Qanu
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    Qanu Stone Golem

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    12:23 AM
    HammerSlam
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    But the combo attack of heroes also buffs up to 200% at 3rd job?
    Dark Knight gets berserk even though it's activated at 50% of their HP, a well HP washed DrK will have little trouble with survivability.
     

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