Balance Changes/Vent

Your idea that leeching is a symptom of needing HP washing tells me you're a either an exceptionally casual player, or haven't played for any lengthy amount of time. Leeching has been around forever, not just as a need for HP washing. Bold claims of the uninitiated.

 

It's still worth it to use Conc on cooldown. You get the 1.3 odd wa, and you already comp the cider cost through 50% MP reduction.

 

The cost isn’t the matter here, but rather, inventory space. Also, there are, undoubtedly, people out there that are using Soul Arrow with their 2/5 ciders, so the logic doesn’t seem to apply consistently. How much are you willing to sacrifice (meso/inventory/inconvenience) in order to gain x attack? The logic of minor optimization seem to get lost with the “I’ll just do x because others told me to” crowd.

 

I was referring to the inventory space and inconvenience as part of the cost. I do not have any control, however, over whether other people choose to make contradictory optimisation choices.

 

I can take this one.

This change would result in a 5-7% DPM increase for 180+ Bowmasters on Cider and a 3-5% DPM increase for 180+ Bowmasters on Apple. That is a colossal buff and absolutely has implications for the class and ML as a whole.

Concentrate has a 2 minute cooldown after effect end for 66.67% uptime and is optimally used on cooldown. It is useful in almost every situation except on HT Buff, PB Buff, Apple, Gelt, and Cake.

Enrage. Has the exact same WA buff, duration, and cooldown as Concentrate.

"Energy Charge" does not stack. You do not cast it.

I don't really know what to add to this. This is the only context you yourself provided. We are going off the information you gave.

You described Bishops as a "Mobber". What does this mean? What does a "Mobber" do? Is it just having the ability to kill lots of monsters?

You didn't even follow the implications of your own suggestion to their logical end. Why do Bishops like killing lots of monsters right now? Because monsters give EXP and Mesos (and drops worth mesos). What would happen if you remove EXP and Mesos from monsters? There is no longer any incentive to kill monsters. Where does this leave Bishops? Resurrect, Holy Shield, Dispel, and Holy Symbol mules.

And I'm going to pre-emptively address the point if you're going to make it, if you simply nerf the EXP/drops instead of removing them entirely, and make the EXP and Mesos from monsters the same as an attacker, then you might as well just be a "Mobber" with that same attacker while also being able to attack.

Nobody here has said anything that would be described as "attacking" you. If you're going to make a suggestion, you need to be prepared to defend it. If you are unwilling to address inaccuracies and answer questions about your suggestion, that is entirely on you. Your suggestion has huge, glaring flaws and I don't know why you're expecting everyone to just accept them blindly.

 

As someone who values highly the convenience of not having self-trade ciders as frequently, the 1.3 atk difference is mostly negligible to me, especially if I'm running short form content. The only time I'd actually use full cider length (more accurately, timed concentrate usage) on longer form content is during content that weapon cancels frequently which eats into your avg atk/min per resource advantage.

As for the 50% mp reduction, I think that's situational. If you're getting hit frequently enough where your MP is getting healed along with your HP, it's a wash. I guess that's ultimately dependent on the type of pots you use and your HP/MP.

 

That's fair. I find myself in NT enough that restocking on Ciders isn't an inconvenience, so the impact on inventory is negligible. I suppose since you mostly run Zak it's a different story.

 

the conversation i thought was quite civil until the beegoratto dismissed all OP's thoughts just from your concentrate misinformation and -ovv condescendingly called OP a new player and -preemptively- got defensive, without providing any constructive information OR any sort of feedback. It's quite frustrating how some people in forum that's quite active are so dismissive/rude and then when new people in the forum are rude back to them, they blame it on others. I know it must be frustrating for you guys as well, but if you start talking in such a manner, there will never be much constructive discussion. If you are rude, other people will not want to agree with you whether you're right or not (unless it was your intent to derail the suggestions by being rude)

Do I agree with what OP wants? not really. Could OP have done better research? yes. But can we just avoid talking in a condescending/rude manner please?

 

Might as well give this thread a read.

What makes you think HP challenges will solve HP washing? What gives you the confidence that a large majority of the server prefers making challenge system characters over making end-game viable characters?

Not trying to be combative. I agree that the prevalence of leech has a stranglehold on this server, and the server probably could have been better had it never existed. As someone who has admonished the potential problems of a leech-dependent server in this thread 2 years ago, it seems like the player sentiment has changed quite a bit with new promises, new content releases, and a new generation of players.

The fact is some people enjoy leeching, so taking that away in order to force every player through a less efficient, cookie cutter content pipeline might not be the best move. Making new characters is enjoyable for old players and new players alike. However, regulating how they're played would make things less enjoyable for more players (new players not affected, some old players affected). New players are still free to play their characters without leech dependency, and the challenge system will help with the HP washing optional woes. However, the process of making an end-game viable character is much different than the process of making a character that has access to all content, and new players shouldn't be barred from the access to making an end-game viable character by eliminating leech. There would need to be an alternative method.

FWIW, my comment about new misinformed players isn't even a jab at OP. I don't really care if people are misinformed about something as long as they're open to learning/discussing. It's hard to convey tone through text sometimes, and people interpret things in their own preconceived tone as well.

 

Not sure why some people enjoying leeching implies it shouldn't be touched. Some people enjoyed summon farming and HH mules.

 

The summon farming and HH mule nerfs were pretty direct and straightforward. The impact of leech is way more layered than that. What's stronger, NL lobby or mage lobby?

 

I don't see a problem with a nerf to leeching, but I do have a problem with addressing issues from the wrong direction. Many of the issues the OP brings up are direct result of legacy players (players able to afford leech during sections of levels that would be used for PQing, people using leech to forego "hell level ranges," etc). Leeching has been around since GMS, more prominent in private servers due to the increased EXP rates, but still. If it were to be nerfed, I'd honestly rather see a similar adjustment to what Unity had, which was no EXP for inactive party members. Would make it so rope sitters can't just passively level while not playing the game. Sure, there would be workarounds but those would require more effort than just playing the game imo.

OP stated themselves, leech is lucrative aspect of 4th job mage culture, how badly would their economy be hit with a change to it? Would a change to leech mechanics drastically change how the jobs are played/reduce them to further muling?

My comment on OP being casual/inexperienced isn't exactly a jab, as I myself am a rather casual player, but I'm not ignorant to the knowledge that further gutting mage ult attacks or adjusting leech mechanics could drastically change 4th job mages as well as other jobs that benefit from them, and arguably not for the better.

 

Sometimes, i wish just like how you can ask kimmy to ban you temporarily, you could ask for nerfs to be applied to just your character to see if the suggestions make sense.

 

sounds good, and sorry I pointed fingers a lil. Yall great and I agree with the points about the balance, as much as I love the idea of battle mages.

It would be cool if mages could choose between mobbing/bossing, for example, what if mages could only choose between ulti or single target skill at 4th job? And that would not be able to be reset.

 

why weapon attack for concentrate? change it to op avoid.
take note of ur dpm (say in zak) when u have event dish/gm buff, i.e. 100 extra avoid.

 

Why give weapon attack for concentrate? Just make it save mp (same as alchemist).