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Add a Cooldown on Shifter

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by -ovv, Mar 31, 2022.

  1. Snork
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    Snork Capt. Latanica

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  2. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    #justiceforalttabhurricane

    The purpose of that thread was to bring to light the disparity of bug fix classification, the biased use cases of Sticky Key in this game, and staff's prior non-opsition on the matter. As you know, alt-tab hurricane still exists in the server and is undetectable. Likewise, staplebotting triple throw macroing NLs still exists in this server and is undetectable.

    So you're saying - braindead game play as NL class identity is to archer's alt tab hurricane, correct? Then why does one persist and is advocated for while the other is not? XatGiggle
     
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  3. Snork
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    Snork Capt. Latanica

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    Putting those two quotes after each other was too funny to pass up. Just being a little inflammatory! (you'd know) I agree with you in this thread tbh.
     
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  4. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    It would, but trust me when I say that this will just lead sweatier players to further innovation which in turn puts staff in another hard situation. It's a perpetual cycle of nerf to fix a problem met with innovation to work around it.

    Referring to my previous post in another thread:
    Look at what happened because staff wanted to make horntail more challenging by adding 6x sed timers. People made shad sed mules.
    Look at what happened because staff wanted to control meso generation through sweeper nerfs. People adjusted by making mage sweepers, and it pushed people to explore quad-penta-hexa mage farming strategies to compensate for the loss of revenue. Now, people are stuck in this iron cage of multiclienting labor to meet the ever-rising prices of end-game items, and it's becoming normalized.

    Maybe an advisory team could help hash out the problems of suggested implementations before they get released? Just a thought.

    Making Pinkbean harder only pushed players to a Nightlord focused composition, and the previously 30-man mixed composition runs turned into 18-man nightlord fiestas over night. Nerfing Nightlords in bossing situations will do nothing but bring better end-game bossing balance while drawing out the endless (until they quit in a month) cries of the 10 3rd job Hermits with 4 int in this server.

    This suggestion isn't even that big of a nerf, but the salt from NL tears could fill a desert. Prove me wrong with your math. :^)
     
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  5. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    ok, just wait for your bad opinnion get denied by the staff, no sense in answering any post of you, the same guy who ask for buffs on archers, for you only people who play on the meta exists, fuck everyone who want to have fun, destroy the experience of almost everyone because some people heavy wash till 160 >=(
    And this is how the game works, people will literally quit if this stupid ping reliable change pass.
     
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  6. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    How can I be disappointed when I expect nothing?

    If people quit because they get hit 5% more in a boss run, I hope they make a forum post about it because that would be prime content.
     
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  7. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    didnt u realise the meta now is start with a bsp/mage + cleave (optional) then move on to NL (with se mule) and then more NLs? Meanwhile work on at least quad ToT setup.
    Theres no SE main in there.

    edit: i got a bm too but re-rolling to NL
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. Estrahl
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    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

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    The thread unfortunately derailed when the OP decided that snidely attempting to discredit, and sarcastically dismissing, any opposing viewpoint was the better alternative to actually considering the opposing viewpoints and perspectives.

    The discussion is over because no one wants to have a conversation with them. And they will continue to believe they are right regardless what is said. No one likes talking to a wall.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  9. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Nothing has been said because nothing new has been brought to the conversation. :^)

    The math has been laid out. What else is there to say but to troll people for being salty about suggesting even the slightest of nerfs?
     
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  10. aaronis
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    aaronis Slimy

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    That is a very funny idea, I bestow upon you a "funny react".
     
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  11. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    LOL. Good luck trying to push for a NL nerf, where everyone is either a NL or making a NL.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  12. shck
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    shck Timer Retired Staff

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    i think it depends - how would one establish which classes are weaker? i happen to think most classes excel at something or somewhere compared to others, in spite of relevancy.
    i would agree with making gear progression more rewarding - but isn't it already? the actual reason behind why gear progression feels lackluster when you're at a certain point is really just bc what we pay for each main stat or weapon attack increment is light-years beyond what it should be worth. but that's going to be on a discussion meant for another "fix the economy" thread.

    now that we've gone off-topic, having perfect-perfect gears isn't necessarily necessary, i firmly believe having the good gears gets one onto a squad/into boss runs, but what keeps them there, is ultimately how well they play.
    we all know people with perfect(or -1/-2) weapons getting benched from PB runs after dying 7x or more, and that of course, depends on the squad.

    and yes, attack pots should really be taken a look at. if we take comparisons to the extreme, onyx apples are the probably only reason why someone would bring a MM with a mediocre weapon attack crossbow who probably still has base int to PB instead of bending over for Toon.

    and again, i've always been a supporter of rewarding skillful gameplay instead of raw power. so yes, i like the idea of making NL no longer a braindead playstyle class. OP's suggestion may not have been the most ideal but it was a start, no one solution fixes all and this thread has served a purpose that is re-assuring us that having a civil discussion is in fact not possible on these forums.
     
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  13. Skumbag
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    Skumbag King Slime

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    If mages had triple FMA macro removed can we have NL to have their triple TT macro removed as well?

    I think that combined with reverting shadow stars to the normal duration and maybe a slight alchemist nerf would be a decent step forward without hurting the class.

    I don’t really think taking away the identity of the thief class is really the answer. This suggestion would also nerf Shads a lot more than NLs because they still use bstep + band of thieves combo for certain scenarios where dark sight isn’t used. Playing shad with less avoid when they don’t have stance sounds horrible in places like HT.
     
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  14. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    In my previous post I already mention this, and I don’t think making an exception for shadowers is worth it simply because of sed muling as another form of afk play.

    However, I also brought up the point that shadowers are undeserving of a nerf, so this change should come in addition to a shadowers buff in some other area. Hence, balance.

    In the same light, a nerf for NLs should not come with a buff as compensation simply because NLs are overtuned and probably deserving of a nerf. Hence, balance.
     
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  15. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    The big pots are apples and gelts, right? Were either available in KMS pre-BB? I feel like a lot of the most busted and problematic content in v62 is GMS-exclusive junk that wasn't balanced at all. iTCG items were removed but NLC pots and Onyx Apples are still available. And then there's Shaolin and Ulu city, which AFAIK were from other regions as well.

    Maybe balance team should take a closer look at how this "2nd party" content affects balance. ;)
     
  16. Estrahl
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    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

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    Apples came from Amoria, which iirc came before NLC.

    As far as NLC pots go, %pots existed before NLC in the form of Elixers and Power Elixers.

    I think if we were to have that sort of conversation, it would be better to look at the cost efficiency of pots down the road. Sans NLC, pot cost gets stupidly high, for every tier you go up they lose efficiency in hp/mp per meso.

    Red and Blue pots cost as much as they heal, but going one tier up, mana elixirs and white pots cost double of what they heal. Unless my memory is wrong(and I'll update that later) pot costs ramp up pretty extreme, to the point where if you can find and buy elixirs and power elixirs, they become the most cost effective by far of any of the original potion/food options.

    **I stand corrected. Red pots cost 50 and heal for 50. They are the only preNLC 1:1 potion. But I can't remember if it's always been like that. I don't think Kimmy/Team ever changed the prices of pots, but I've been wrong before. Anyways after red it goes Orange for 160:150, white are 320:300. Unagi are 1100:1000, ice cream pops are 2300:2000, and melting cheese is 4500:4000. MP pots are 200:100, 620:300, 1650:800, 8100:4000, and 10200:5000. It's just common sense to buy something at 1:1, especially when it can hold more. I still hold on that opinion.

    Maybe toning down the price of potions would help people consider just outright buying Reindeer Milk and Dews, or anything higher. The fact that Sorcerer and Barbarian Elixirs are 1:1 isn't the problem, nor are the % equivalents. It's the fact that nothing else really compares.

    You bring an iPhone to the market where Blackberries only existed, should we say iPhones destroyed the early smartphone market? Or did they just make it better
     
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  17. DrChuchu
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    DrChuchu Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    What purpose would this serve? Macro does not affect single client NL holding down a button. The reason mage ultis macro was removed was because it literally made it too easy to multimage 5-6, as you get ~9 seconds of casts with a single button press.

    I would argue that the macro expands NL + other client gameplay because you get 1.8 seconds (rather than 0.6 seconds) to interact with a 2nd character. To me, this lets me run HT Sed bish+sed NL (both active) without compromising too much dpm or utility on either. You can treat NL as a one button hold char, but I'd argue that gameplay can still be expanded and pushed to its limit. The rest is just player preference.
     
  18. Skumbag
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    Skumbag King Slime

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    That's kind of exactly why it would be a nerf to NL without gutting the class completely in terms of DPS + avoid. With 3x Triple Throw macro right now, they're the highest DPS AND they can multi client mule easily as well due to having high avoid as well and flash jump to reposition if needed.

    With the macro NLs are able to mule multiple chars in boss runs, farm with mages on other clients easier, etc while having the highest damage in the game. It won't be long until you see boss runs with people bringing in two of their NLs with a SE mule as I've seen in other servers.
     
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  19. lv1crook
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    lv1crook Capt. Latanica

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    Buccs had dex avoid formula nerfed to crap, and that isn’t even their main attacking stat. If you ask me, it’s crazy NLs have gone this long without at least like a 20% avoid nerf. Where is the justice?
     
  20. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Would like some input from actual NL mains and not people who haven’t even reached 4th job yet speculating on balance issues with a myopic ‘holistic’ approach attitude.

    Please post your ign and dpm 45 as well for verification.
     
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